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Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

stanforddaily.com

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Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#261
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument seems strange to me. Only 300 people have died because of the policies that were put in place. Relaxing those policies will increase that number. Now there could be debate about whether that new number is "acceptable" or not. But we shouldn't use the success of the quarantine-like policies to argue that quarantine-like policies are unnecessary.

"Only 300 people have died because of the policies that were put in place. Relaxing those policies will increase that number." This is an assumption, and it's a bad one. The paucity of deaths in young people is true around the world, regardless of lockdown policy. Sweden, for example, does not have a higher proportion of young people dying.

Yes, it is an assumption. Unfortunately, this situation is unprecedented, so everything we do has to be an educated guess. I would also note that you followed it up with an assumption of your own ;)

It is well established that physical distancing limits the spread of virus transmitted via respiratory droplets. If you refute that, I would require significant peer-reviewed literature on your side. https://academic.oup.com/jid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/inf...

It is also irrefutable that contracting COVID-19 carries risk - especially for high-risk individuals with comorbidities (yes, even young people)

Combined, I don't see how you can come up with a hypothesis where getting people together would somehow be equally as safe as keeping people apart.

Again, this is just one aspect that policy makers have to consider. There is also the economy, mental health, etc. I think having those discussions is very interesting - how much should we protect our health vs our way of life? There are very valid arguments against continuing the shut-down.

But acknowledging that social practices directly impact virus transmission is a necessary step to have meaningful discussion.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#262
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well... criticising anyone's degree (even though I also have such a degree) is always arrogant. That's the point we're at though. It has become the most popular degree while simultaneously getting worse in quality... starting from a low base. As I said, I have one of these degrees, and have hired and worked with many people with such degrees. First, I agree that the math and (particularly) the statistics classes are…

> Most business degrees (graduate & undergraduate) are not recognised BAs anymore. Why does it matter if they’re BA or something else? And recognised by who? And obviously a postgrad business degree is not going to be a BA... because that’s an undergrad degree. I think if you’re saying a MBA from a reputable school is useless I think you’re being really really silly. I see the opportunities these degrees give you and…

The practice of going through case studies and learning essentially a history of failures and successes in business was extremely valuable. The frameworks can be a little academic at times, but showing people how to think about business problems from multiple perspectives is very educational and useful when you actually have to solve your own business problem.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#263
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but while infected with mild (or no) symptoms, they may also unknowingly spread it to university employees, townsfolk, or their parents while visiting for the weekend. So even assuming that the personal danger is acceptable (which isn't a given; 300 deaths sounds like a horrible and avoidable tragedy to me) death figures among healthy 20-somethings don't capture the full risk of keeping a university open.

"So even assuming that the personal danger is acceptable (which isn't a given; 300 deaths sounds like a horrible and avoidable tragedy to me) death figures among healthy 20-somethings don't capture the full risk of keeping a university open." Well now you're shifting the goalposts. The comment was that the students are at risk. Someone shows you that they're not at risk, and you pivot to danger to "townsfolk". Here's…

> The comment was that the students are at risk. Someone shows you that they're not at risk, and you pivot to danger to "townsfolk".

Assuming they're not stupid, evil, or politically conservative, the students are probably concerned about the risk of spreading the illness and the attendant harm that could cause, as well as what it could do to themselves.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#264

I feel like I can offer a unique perspective on this because I go to Notre Dame and we are just finishing the first week of classes with everyone back on campus. It's gone alright so far. All the cases so far have been traced back to off campus bars or parties. However, I expect it to get worse soon as cases start spreading on campus. If you want to see how Notre Dame is doing with cases and testing we have a dashboa…

How do you mean it is going alright? Almost 30 students tested positive last week.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#265
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat different take. The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries and exists in K-12 education without runaway costs and student debt. It's mostly a matter of policy. The US' method to expand third level education to most of the population was by government backed and/or subsidized loans, without price controls. This caused…

Is college for 'betterment' or 'your interest', about getting a job. I'm not against the first two, but as a member of society I'm only interested in the last one, and I don't think I should be asked to subsidize your hobbies. If you can't get a better job because of education then I want nothing to do with it. (I'm also interested in improving science)

Betterment means all of these. What it means to you means what you think is better. Anyway, why should a hobbiest be asked to subsidize your career progression?

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#266

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

Trades have been more lucrative than many liberal arts-esque jobs for decades. Awareness isn’t the issue. The issue is social acceptability. Until plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. stop being a part of the undesirable Other to middle and upper middle class Americans, nothing will change. Paying $100,000 for your kid to study underwater basket weaving at Harvard is still socially superior to running a multi-mil…

IMO, they’re not so socially undesireable as they’re hard physical work and parents/kids aren’t motivated to work that hard when an AC office awaits a liberal arts grad.

My father didn’t want me to follow grandpa and be farmer or carpenter because it was a hard life. Most hvac, plumber, electricians I’ve known were following in family footsteps because it was lucrative and they were raised in it. It’s non-trivial to break into, physically demanding and years of apprenticing before you can go your own way.

It can be done, and there are great opps for those who can stick with it for 5 years. And like all trades, your market is growing because all the old guys are getting old.

http://sfelectricaltraining.org/

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#267

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

Trades have been more lucrative than many liberal arts-esque jobs for decades. Awareness isn’t the issue. The issue is social acceptability. Until plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. stop being a part of the undesirable Other to middle and upper middle class Americans, nothing will change. Paying $100,000 for your kid to study underwater basket weaving at Harvard is still socially superior to running a multi-mil…

In my social group almost all of the parents working in the trades sent their kids to 4-year universities. Of the few who didn't, they didn't have much of a choice. The kids who didn't have the grades for college, enrolled in tradeschool.

Of all the kids who could go to college or go to tradeschool they all chose college.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#268
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many Stanford students are even capable of working a trade?

What do you mean by that?

Would you be equally confused if it was phrased the other way?

"How many trade workers are even capable of going to Stanford?"

People like to talk about "grit" in white collar circles. If you want to see real "grit" go talk to the blue collar people who do shitty jobs at the expense of their personal health so their kids can have a better life.

The working class has an understanding of self sacrifice that is largely absent from more well-off groups.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#269
Reduce prices. Expand the number of students. Most STEM work does not require that you be present on campus. Heck, even "gender studies" degrees do not require it, if you'd like more of that.

This is once in a decade opportunity to increase the throughput, _and_ increase the quality of their creme de la creme (because with more throughput more high performing outliers will randomly be caught). And they'll 100% squander it.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#270
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree about the college format going completely online. There is so much about the college experience that is not directly related to earning a degree. It's a place where most people are exposed to new ideas, new types of people. It's a place where lasting friendships and relationships are formed. It's a place of growth that an online experience could never hope to replicate, and that's the REAL benefit of colle…

> I know people who went to college, but lived at home with their parents "to save money". In reality, they didn't need to save the minimal room and board fees of a state school; they were mostly just cowards. Such strong words! In many countries, it is totally normal to stay at home with your parents and attend a college in your hometown, especially if it is a big enough city with many colleges.

> Such strong words! In many countries, it is totally normal to stay at home with your parents and attend a college in your hometown, especially if it is a big enough city with many colleges.

Exactly. This comment is quite insensitive even if ignoring the tuition costs in America. There are other reasons for living at home with your parents while going to university. I personally had to do this due to severe chronic health problems. I was 100% capable of going to university full time while working part time. I just needed to be able to live at home.

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