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Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

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Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#81
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And one day we'll all be obsolete, implying we won't be able to show our value through our work. Brave New World. Ideal for a certain social class: the alphas.

Food, material goods, and services are cheaper and more plentiful than they have ever been in human history. Add to that: jobs are easier to discover, self-teach, and contact than they have ever been in human history. For the poor as well as the rich. The main thing people get unhappy about is wealth disparity ie., how much MORE the rich have than the poor. That even today's poor have a rectangle that's effectively a…

Nice narrative. Yes, poors are better in a materialistic way. Now, what about their freedom? Is that also getting better? You might recall the magic rectangle from Farenheit 451...

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by the "bowled through"? Didn't they go through the FCC (US) who took it to the ITU (UN) and get it all cleared? Looks like the international body in charge permitted it? What does good behaviour look like?

You make a fair point -- I think maybe it is not totally fair to blame the companies here -- they are in a competitive environment and really the best we can expect is for them to follow the letter of the law, which it seems they mostly did. There is a suit against the FCC that argues they incorrectly claimed that their constellation would not have an "environmental impact" (which would have required an environmental…

By the way, are you an astronomer? Would you mind putting your email in your profile? I'd love to chat without the accompanying gallery.

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s really sad that something as universal and beautiful as the night sky is now something to be pissed on. Pretty much a perfect example to demonstrate that “tech people” are amoral assholes. I hope the satellites all burn up.

Starlink isn’t visible in the night sky. It’s satellites are in such low orbits they spend Tye night in the earths shadow, where they are invisible. They are only visible on the horizon at dawn/dusk, where there is actual sunlight to reflect. Lastly the latest version of Starlink satellites has a shade visor that reduces reflection enough to make them invisible even at dawn/dusk.

I have seen them with my own eyes. And they are currently at what, 1% of expected deployment? And when amazon and who-knows-who-else puts up their constellation?

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time to start building tools to jam the spectrum. Make these things useless.

So that we'll have the negative impact of the satelites, but no benefit? How is that supposed to solve anything?

The goal is to hurt the business model. Make people think the service is unreliable and they won’t use it.

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a fair point -- I think maybe it is not totally fair to blame the companies here -- they are in a competitive environment and really the best we can expect is for them to follow the letter of the law, which it seems they mostly did. There is a suit against the FCC that argues they incorrectly claimed that their constellation would not have an "environmental impact" (which would have required an environmental…

Is it a cost thing or a capability thing? i.e. is it possible for Starlink to have what they want without interfering with terrestrial astronomy or are we really choosing one or the other? Quite sympathetic to astronomers if it is cost thing, but undecided (maybe slightly leaning Starlink) if it is capability thing. Assuming that within 20 years we can have sufficiently cheap space launch systems that there are suffi…

> Is it a cost thing or a capability thing? i.e. is it possible for Starlink to have what they want without interfering with terrestrial astronomy or are we really choosing one or the other? Quite sympathetic to astronomers if it is cost thing, but undecided (maybe slightly leaning Starlink) if it is capability thing.

I think it's a bit of both; right now SpaceX is trying to get the brightness of their starlink sats down to ~7th mag (they're at 5th mag now, they have an experimental coating that should bring this down to ~6th mag), and it sounds like if they can do this the problems will be far more manageable (for LSST specifically this amounts to a few extra months of observing time, however the impact even with these mitigations is strongly dependent on the specific science case).

However, this work should be done before approval. What happens when SpaceX realizes that getting things down to 7th mag is too difficult and costly and time-intensive? Without regulations in place, I would expect they shrug their shoulders, do some PR to frame the problem as "us vs those pesky astronomers" and launch what they want to launch. We have virtually no leverage. But from the standpoint of people that operate in space pretty regularly, what we're asking is pretty basic. Astronomy of course isn't going to be thrilled with the amount of satellites growing by a factor of 10-100x, but we live in the real world. But something that monumental needs to be done thoughtfully and carefully and with respect to the billions of dollars of R&D already paid for that will be impacted.

> Assuming that within 20 years we can have sufficiently cheap space launch systems that there are sufficient geosynchronous telescopes for amateur use would that solve this problem?

Again, space delivery costs are only one factor. Not to say this wouldn't enable new kinds of instruments or make some new things possible, but it would not solve the problem, no. There are too many things that can't realistically be done from space.

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a cost thing or a capability thing? i.e. is it possible for Starlink to have what they want without interfering with terrestrial astronomy or are we really choosing one or the other? Quite sympathetic to astronomers if it is cost thing, but undecided (maybe slightly leaning Starlink) if it is capability thing. Assuming that within 20 years we can have sufficiently cheap space launch systems that there are suffi…

> Is it a cost thing or a capability thing? i.e. is it possible for Starlink to have what they want without interfering with terrestrial astronomy or are we really choosing one or the other? Quite sympathetic to astronomers if it is cost thing, but undecided (maybe slightly leaning Starlink) if it is capability thing. I think it's a bit of both; right now SpaceX is trying to get the brightness of their starlink sats…

Cool beans. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it a cost thing or a capability thing? i.e. is it possible for Starlink to have what they want without interfering with terrestrial astronomy or are we really choosing one or the other? Quite sympathetic to astronomers if it is cost thing, but undecided (maybe slightly leaning Starlink) if it is capability thing. I think it's a bit of both; right now SpaceX is trying to get the brightness of their starlink sats…

Cool beans. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Sure! I think your questions are very reasonable, we'll have to see how it all shakes out.

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starlink isn’t visible in the night sky. It’s satellites are in such low orbits they spend Tye night in the earths shadow, where they are invisible. They are only visible on the horizon at dawn/dusk, where there is actual sunlight to reflect. Lastly the latest version of Starlink satellites has a shade visor that reduces reflection enough to make them invisible even at dawn/dusk.

I have seen them with my own eyes. And they are currently at what, 1% of expected deployment? And when amazon and who-knows-who-else puts up their constellation?

Again, you can’t see them when it’s night without magnification. And with visors you can’t see them at dawn or dusk.

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen them with my own eyes. And they are currently at what, 1% of expected deployment? And when amazon and who-knows-who-else puts up their constellation?

Again, you can’t see them when it’s night without magnification. And with visors you can’t see them at dawn or dusk.

Again, these are both not true. Even if they were, it doesn’t help astronomers. Quit sucking Elon’s dick for 5 sec and you might let a little reality seep in.
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