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Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#51

Post by nelaboras »

nindalf wrote: post #35

The two problems pointed by the article - light pollution caused by high reflectivity and potential crashes appear to be difficult to solve because solving one makes the other worse. If the satellites tried to become more difficult to detect, perhaps with light absorbent coating they would also become more difficult to detect by other satellites in orbit.

There already was this story of a $bn research satellite having to dodge a throwaway SoaceX satellite. Real issue is accountability and the difference in risk and cost - SpaceX should pay for the reduced lifetime of this satellite (as it costs fuel to change height).

https://www.esa.int/Safety_Security/ESA_spacecraft_dodges_la...

With many more satellites on the way there will be more such stories.

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#52

Post by renewiltord »

astrophysician wrote: post #13
ckdarby wrote: post #3

Is this really a worry? Won't all the gear eventually be moved off Earth and into space making this argument pointless? I'm guessing amateurs with a telescope in their backyard are the ones suffering?

This is really a worry. * Many experiments and a lot of science cannot be done from space, even if delivery costs were much cheaper. E.g. LSST (0.5 billion in US funding alone, + lots of other funding sources), or wide-field astronomy important for near earth object detection and monitoring (e.g. ASASSN). These things are too complex and too large to realistically do in space. * Ground-based astronomy is inherently c…

What do you mean by the "bowled through"? Didn't they go through the FCC (US) who took it to the ITU (UN) and get it all cleared? Looks like the international body in charge permitted it?

What does good behaviour look like?

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#53

Post by renewiltord »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #49
shajznnckfke wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This overstates the problem I think. It will be an issue for wide-field astronomy. On the other hand, even with tens of thousands of satellites, they will only be covering a tiny fraction of the sky. For narrow-field you should be unobstructed most of the time, and able to turn the sensor off momentarily when the odd satellite is going to obstruct you.

> This overstates the problem I think. It will be an issue for wide-field astronomy. I think you are downplaying the problem. They are already reporting issues with Starlinks and there are "only" a few hundred of them right now, Amazon wants to deploy 3k low orbiting satellites. Look at this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_astronomical_observato... The very large majority of the world's observatories are…

> This is not scientific progress, this is just two billionaires trying to one up each other and muscling their way around the world to rub their egos.

Starlink claims to have other objectives. Why do you think their stated objectives are dishonest?

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#54

Post by SiempreViernes »

mikro2nd wrote: post #44
thereisnospork wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other than scale I really don't see the difference between '''desicrating''' a skyline with ugly[0] architecture and starlink et al. Sure some architecture stays ugly - but preserving the aesthetics of a sky(line) ranks really low on my list of things that are worth stopping progress over.

It's not primarily about aesthetics, but about the ability to do fundamental science. Ugly buildings don't obstruct observation of the universe.

Obviously they obstruct it a bit, but generally in places you don't try to do any astronomy anyway. The real innovation of Starlink is cutting the link to the start over the almost the entirety of the Earths surface, true market disruptor move right there.

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#55

Post by echelon »

missedthecue wrote: post #19
briga wrote: post #12

It's a little baffling how monstrously big Amazon has become over the years. Pretty soon there won't be an industry left untouched by Amazon's tentacles. Hard to see how they can continue down this path without getting broken up. On the bright side: each new satellite launch should lower the barrier to entry for the next satellite launch. This combined with growing competition in the space industry could lead the way…

It's regrettable and bitterly discouraging that the more Amazon works toward improving mine and millions of others daily lives, the closer they get to being broken up. At least, that's the way I see it. They've added new competition in so many areas. They've saved the consumer so much money that the federal reserve literally blamed them for lowering inflation, but instead, the federal government as painfully ironic a…

How would you feel if Amazon entered your market and killed your company?

What if it takes them zero effort to do so?

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#56

Post by simion314 »

ckdarby wrote: post #3

Is this really a worry? Won't all the gear eventually be moved off Earth and into space making this argument pointless? I'm guessing amateurs with a telescope in their backyard are the ones suffering?

> Won't all the gear eventually be moved off Earth and into space making this argument pointless?

Eventually? Can you estimate how much it costs to move all existing and planed satellites in space? After that can you tell us if the billionaires would pay or the public? Also please estimate when it will be done.

If the society needs this satellites then we need something that the entire world would benefit not some billionaires(reminds me as regular pollution where billionaires get rich and poor guys pay the consequences )

Also we need to minimize the number of this objects, you will not like it when China puts 1 million of satellites - at least Trump for sure will not like it and propose some space wall.

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#57

Post by systemcluster »

rscho wrote: post #37
missedthecue wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's regrettable and bitterly discouraging that the more Amazon works toward improving mine and millions of others daily lives, the closer they get to being broken up. At least, that's the way I see it. They've added new competition in so many areas. They've saved the consumer so much money that the federal reserve literally blamed them for lowering inflation, but instead, the federal government as painfully ironic a…

> Amazon works toward improving mine and millions of others daily lives ... thousands of small businesses and millions of retail workers are so thankful for this "improvement". The day is nigh where you and I will also get "improved", hopefully!

Occupations are always made obsolete when society advances as a whole and better solutions become available. We would not have progress otherwise.

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#58

Post by DoingIsLearning »

renewiltord wrote: post #53
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This overstates the problem I think. It will be an issue for wide-field astronomy. I think you are downplaying the problem. They are already reporting issues with Starlinks and there are "only" a few hundred of them right now, Amazon wants to deploy 3k low orbiting satellites. Look at this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_astronomical_observato... The very large majority of the world's observatories are…

> This is not scientific progress, this is just two billionaires trying to one up each other and muscling their way around the world to rub their egos. Starlink claims to have other objectives. Why do you think their stated objectives are dishonest?

Internet service is a solved problem, you have transoceanic cables and distribution networks which garantee reliable, high bandwith, internet service.

This is a gimmick to sell the imaginary joy that you can go anywhere remotely and enjoy the pleasures of the modern connected world. There are already niche providers for Satellite services that users can use, if they are truly isolated and are able to afford internet.

There is no sense in having all of this infrastructure duplicated and done via RF transmission over a low-orbiting constellation (with all the losses and realibility issues around it), if it can easily be achieved through expanding the existing infrastructure.

The only use-cases that this serves are high-income people that want to go off-grid but are unwilling to sacrifice high-bandwith, and military deployments (Which SpaceX does not hide as an objective).

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#59

Post by cafebabbe »

rscho wrote: post #37
missedthecue wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's regrettable and bitterly discouraging that the more Amazon works toward improving mine and millions of others daily lives, the closer they get to being broken up. At least, that's the way I see it. They've added new competition in so many areas. They've saved the consumer so much money that the federal reserve literally blamed them for lowering inflation, but instead, the federal government as painfully ironic a…

> Amazon works toward improving mine and millions of others daily lives ... thousands of small businesses and millions of retail workers are so thankful for this "improvement". The day is nigh where you and I will also get "improved", hopefully!

Not to mention the thousands of workers having to deal with grueling, unsafe work conditions.

Re: Amazon satellites add to astronomers' worries about night sky

#60

Post by [deleted] »

rscho wrote: post #37
missedthecue wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's regrettable and bitterly discouraging that the more Amazon works toward improving mine and millions of others daily lives, the closer they get to being broken up. At least, that's the way I see it. They've added new competition in so many areas. They've saved the consumer so much money that the federal reserve literally blamed them for lowering inflation, but instead, the federal government as painfully ironic a…

> Amazon works toward improving mine and millions of others daily lives ... thousands of small businesses and millions of retail workers are so thankful for this "improvement". The day is nigh where you and I will also get "improved", hopefully!

[deleted]
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