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Trump: 'A lot of people' think Edward Snowden 'not being treated fairly'

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Re: Trump: 'A lot of people' think Edward Snowden 'not being treated fairly'

#21

Post by mc32 »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #17
mc32 wrote: post #10

Intelligence services used to be unassailable. They did the dirty work for the country (and admittedly it’s a necessary thing in an unfair world), but a couple of major problems are: they are often wrong in very bad ways: Russian missile crisis, power of the late USSR where Reagan has to seek advice from DoD instead, gulf war II and then the internal and political spying (remember they were caught spying on congress?…

I'm generally distrustful of intelligence agencies because they are literally designed to carry out underhanded and deceptive operations. If you go back and read old WWII and Cold War declassified documents you can clearly see a lot of "ends justify the means" operations. I've never understood why we hold these agencies in such high regard. I guess because they're supposed to be on 'our side'?

Unfortunately one can’t unilaterally be “the nice guy” and hope everyone else will decide, “yeah, let’s all be nice guys”. It doesn’t happen. So everyone who wants a more level playing field for themselves has to engage.

Re: Trump: 'A lot of people' think Edward Snowden 'not being treated fairly'

#22

Post by squarefoot »

Barrin92 wrote: post #2

>In a 2013 tweet, Trump wrote: “Snowden is a spy who should be executed-but if it and he could reveal Obama’s records, I might become a major fan.” good god, that's one of the most Trumpish Trump tweets ever.

He's the same guy who endorsed the use of hydroxychloroquine as Covid-19 treatment by falsely claiming that it was safe and the FDA had approved it, and at least one person died after following his advice, so no surprise at all. He says what at the moment brings more approval without any care of the consequences.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2020/03/23/man-dead-...

ps. to 45' fanboys: a nice side effect of facts is that they don't disappear along with the posts reporting them, so happy clicketyclicking; I've plenty of karma to burn and too much grey matter to give a damn about it.

Re: Trump: 'A lot of people' think Edward Snowden 'not being treated fairly'

#23

Post by gnramires »

mc32 wrote: post #10

Intelligence services used to be unassailable. They did the dirty work for the country (and admittedly it’s a necessary thing in an unfair world), but a couple of major problems are: they are often wrong in very bad ways: Russian missile crisis, power of the late USSR where Reagan has to seek advice from DoD instead, gulf war II and then the internal and political spying (remember they were caught spying on congress?…

I've read recently a discussion on the Roman Praetorian guard. The gist seemed to be that Roman Emperors were largely at their whim -- sometimes they would decide to kill the emperor for no good reason. Any kind of rogue unchecked power is a disaster waiting to happen (because they can yield their power in self-interest or in various irresponsible ways).

See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praetorian_Guard#Severan_dynas...

They went as far as auctioning the emperor title at one time!

Re: Trump: 'A lot of people' think Edward Snowden 'not being treated fairly'

#25

Post by atonse »

mc32 wrote: post #14
nabla9 wrote: post #12

... Now, THEREFORE, I, DONALD JOHN TRUMP , President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Edward Joseph Snowden for all offenses against the United States which he, Edward Joseph Snowden, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period…

If that were to happen I can imagine at least some people who were for his pardon in ‘14 would denounce the pardon if it came to be.

I'd welcome it, even at the hands of Trump. It's as valid. And I'd give Trump credit for it, whether he did it of sound mind or not. Facts are facts.

Re: Trump: 'A lot of people' think Edward Snowden 'not being treated fairly'

#26

Post by ideals »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #17
mc32 wrote: post #10

Intelligence services used to be unassailable. They did the dirty work for the country (and admittedly it’s a necessary thing in an unfair world), but a couple of major problems are: they are often wrong in very bad ways: Russian missile crisis, power of the late USSR where Reagan has to seek advice from DoD instead, gulf war II and then the internal and political spying (remember they were caught spying on congress?…

I'm generally distrustful of intelligence agencies because they are literally designed to carry out underhanded and deceptive operations. If you go back and read old WWII and Cold War declassified documents you can clearly see a lot of "ends justify the means" operations. I've never understood why we hold these agencies in such high regard. I guess because they're supposed to be on 'our side'?

Lots of movies showing how great these secret spy agencies are and all the cool stuff they do has really helped shaped the public's image

Re: Trump: 'A lot of people' think Edward Snowden 'not being treated fairly'

#27

Post by happytoexplain »

mc32 wrote: post #14
nabla9 wrote: post #12

... Now, THEREFORE, I, DONALD JOHN TRUMP , President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Edward Joseph Snowden for all offenses against the United States which he, Edward Joseph Snowden, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period…

If that were to happen I can imagine at least some people who were for his pardon in ‘14 would denounce the pardon if it came to be.

Of course, given any absurd position, you can find somebody who holds it, so the implication of targeting one such position would be that, unlike the others, its representation is non-negligible. I disagree in this example - this seems like the invention of specifically irrational people for the purpose of mocking whatever broader group you perceive them to be a part of. However, what you would certainly find are people not just discussing Trump's hypocrisy/inconsistency, which is a valid opinion, but also people overly focusing on it to the overshadowing of Snowden's freedom.

Re: Trump: 'A lot of people' think Edward Snowden 'not being treated fairly'

#28

Post by dragonwriter »

bovermyer wrote: post #16

That sounds suspiciously like he's considering pardoning Snowden. Also... going from calling for Snowden's execution to potentially pardoning him is one hell of a 180.

> That sounds suspiciously like he's considering pardoning Snowden.

It sounds suspiciously like he's doing the “say provocative but noncommittal things referencing subjects of controversy as a distraction from other controversies over concrete policies” thing he does, on average, on more than a daily basis.

Meanwhile, the plot to cancel public voting in the Presidential election and substitute legislature-selected electors in sufficient Republican-governed swing states to guarantee Trump reelection has already passed the “provide a public pretext” stage with Trump’s handpicked leadership at USPS, after dismantling capacity to produce widely publicized mailing delays, following up by notifying states that the Postal Service’s “delivery standards” do not support completing delivery and return of ballots on the timelines required for mailing voting (with the first part of the pretext provided by the pandemics impact on safety and public confidence in in-person voting), leaving only the obvious legislative action as a remaining step.

> Also... going from calling for Snowden's execution to potentially pardoning him is one hell of a 180.

The President always had the potential to pardon anyone for actual, charged, or potential and uncharged federal crimes. There's no transition, much less a 180, to “potential”.

Re: Trump: 'A lot of people' think Edward Snowden 'not being treated fairly'

#29

Post by Shivetya »

bovermyer wrote: post #16

That sounds suspiciously like he's considering pardoning Snowden. Also... going from calling for Snowden's execution to potentially pardoning him is one hell of a 180.

I would love him to do so. We really need another wake up call in this country that the government routinely lies to us and that trusting our officials requires them proving they can be trusted.

Remember, Snowden has been out of this country since May of 2013 and the last Administration did not pardon him but instead did pardon Manning whose actions were more reckless. It really comes down to the fact Snowden really stepped on the toes of some big time political players who are not used to being called out.

Re: Trump: 'A lot of people' think Edward Snowden 'not being treated fairly'

#30

Post by [deleted] »

squarefoot wrote: post #22
Barrin92 wrote: post #2

>In a 2013 tweet, Trump wrote: “Snowden is a spy who should be executed-but if it and he could reveal Obama’s records, I might become a major fan.” good god, that's one of the most Trumpish Trump tweets ever.

He's the same guy who endorsed the use of hydroxychloroquine as Covid-19 treatment by falsely claiming that it was safe and the FDA had approved it, and at least one person died after following his advice, so no surprise at all. He says what at the moment brings more approval without any care of the consequences. https://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2020/03/23/man-dead-... ps. to 45' fanboys: a nice side effect of…

[deleted]
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