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Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

stanforddaily.com

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Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#131
post #32

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

Somewhat different take. The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries and exists in K-12 education without runaway costs and student debt. It's mostly a matter of policy. The US' method to expand third level education to most of the population was by government backed and/or subsidized loans, without price controls. This caused…

I think calling "most business degrees excepting accounting and finance" a problem just seems wrong and frankly pretty arrogant. I do think too many people take business degrees and think they'll just "become managers" (and there's a high number of "don't know what else to do" type of students) but there are many actually useful things taught in the typical degree programs.

I mean thinking of a typical non specialized business BA here (Germany) the math and statistics classes are pretty useful, as is the basic economics primer. The required law courses and tax related courses are pretty useful. Accounting, finance and controlling are useful as well and so are marketing (mostly math/data analysis), strategy, project management and production management (usually operations research centric but also covers quality management). HR seems fairly meh unless you want to go into HR (as the most relevant stuff is already covered in law).

The typical electives cover more in depth of the above and sometimes business information systems, psychology, programming and the like.

And there's some other stuff that's pretty useful like negotiation classes or case studies (if they cover interesting topics).

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s quite unnecessary for you to be so condescending. Of course I’m familiar with other uses of the word. Are you? Why are you so upset by what I’ve said? What is the distinction between a chef trained at a vocational school and a lawyer trained at a law school? Or a programmer trained at Stanford? Chefs produce something tangible, you might say. Lawyers do, too. We draft briefs and contracts and court filings. Or m…

> What is the distinction between a chef trained at a vocational school and a lawyer trained at a law school? One is considered by society to be a 'tradesperson', while the other is considered a 'professional'. Society considers law to not be a 'trade' because it is a 'profession' instead and society sees these as mutually exclusive by definition. I think what you really mean is you don't agree with society's definit…

Please don’t speak for me. I wasn’t “feigning” anything and I meant exactly what I said.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#133

I feel like I can offer a unique perspective on this because I go to Notre Dame and we are just finishing the first week of classes with everyone back on campus. It's gone alright so far. All the cases so far have been traced back to off campus bars or parties. However, I expect it to get worse soon as cases start spreading on campus. If you want to see how Notre Dame is doing with cases and testing we have a dashboa…

So the only way this would work long term is if students on campus don't go to bars to parties?

Technically it could work if they keep distance and wear masks, but as it looks like this has proven to be pretty difficult for people aged 20-30 so far, mostly because the impact of COVID for them is fairly low.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#134
post #9

My son's state university is forcing students to return in person. I fully expect a notable outbreak in some college to start a wave of media noise, followed by all the universities sending everyone back home again. Sucks because students are signing leases, moving crap, buying meal plans, etc, right now. Aside from the obvious safety issues.

"Forcing". There's no one forcing anybody to go to college. This would be a fine time to take a gap year.

Not really! What would one do in a gap year during a pandemic?

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#135
post #66

Let the college kids get sick. They are extremely unlikely to have any serious effects from covid. At least on a college campus they won’t infect older family members. Herd immunity on campus would be reached very quickly. The few with serious preexisting conditions can stay home until that happens. The level of fear is frankly ridiculous. People get sick and people die. One day, we will all die. That is the human co…

They are relatively unlikely to _die_ from COVID-19 (and please do not repeat the false claim that these are only “people already on the cusp of death” - the average victim is losing at least a decade of life based on actuarial data) but we know that there are a much greater percentage of people who will experience significant health problems, potentially with life-long impacts. Similarly, not everyone on or near cam…

> we know that there are a much greater percentage of people who will experience significant health problems, potentially with life-long impacts

This seems to be an alarmist statement. Any disease with a fever component will leave a small percentage with long term damage, same for diseases affecting the lungs.

From https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...

>COVID-19: Lasting damage to the lungs, heart, kidneys, brain and other organs is possible after a severe case of COVID-19.

>Flu: Influenza complications can include inflammation of the heart (myocarditis), brain (encephalitis) or muscles (myositis, rhabdomyolysis) tissues, and multi-organ failure.

Scary headlines sell papers. I read recently on the BBC about brain damaged covid patients. There were less than 50 in a country of 50+ million. That is not a "much greater percentage".

It does everyone a disservice to spread exaggerated fear.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#137
post #9

My son's state university is forcing students to return in person. I fully expect a notable outbreak in some college to start a wave of media noise, followed by all the universities sending everyone back home again. Sucks because students are signing leases, moving crap, buying meal plans, etc, right now. Aside from the obvious safety issues.

Your son wants to be there in person and he is at no danger from the coronavirus...

EDIT: *infinitesimal danger

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#138
post #9

My son's state university is forcing students to return in person. I fully expect a notable outbreak in some college to start a wave of media noise, followed by all the universities sending everyone back home again. Sucks because students are signing leases, moving crap, buying meal plans, etc, right now. Aside from the obvious safety issues.

"Forcing". There's no one forcing anybody to go to college. This would be a fine time to take a gap year.

A gap year isn't free, and they are taking classes that are mandatory to graduate off the table for online.

Also, a gap year at this time? Fun.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#139

Let the college kids get sick. They are extremely unlikely to have any serious effects from covid. At least on a college campus they won’t infect older family members. Herd immunity on campus would be reached very quickly. The few with serious preexisting conditions can stay home until that happens. The level of fear is frankly ridiculous. People get sick and people die. One day, we will all die. That is the human co…

The life expectancy of someone who is 75 is ~12 years [0]. Do we really want to argue that that decade of someone's life has no value because they're "on the cusp of death"? A 1% mortality rate in the US (if everyone gets it) is 4 million people. The US fought the longest war in their history over 3000 deaths. That all is ignoring permanent, non-fatal damage. There's reasonable evidence at this point that Covid infec…

>There's reasonable evidence at this point that Covid infections do long-term damage, even to healthy people

It is already a known fact that diseases with fever and/or lung components leave a small percentage of people with long term damage. Covid is like the flu in this regard.

From https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...

>COVID-19: Lasting damage to the lungs, heart, kidneys, brain and other organs is possible after a severe case of COVID-19.

>Flu: Influenza complications can include inflammation of the heart (myocarditis), brain (encephalitis) or muscles (myositis, rhabdomyolysis) tissues, and multi-organ failure.

It seems that people are surprised that this happens, and/or think covid is different in degree. The numbers I have seen so far are quite small and unsuprising, for example less than 50 people with long-lasting fever damage in a country of 50+ million.

Do you have any sources claiming covid is different in this regard than any other fever/lung disease?

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#140

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

Trades have been more lucrative than many liberal arts-esque jobs for decades. Awareness isn’t the issue. The issue is social acceptability. Until plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. stop being a part of the undesirable Other to middle and upper middle class Americans, nothing will change. Paying $100,000 for your kid to study underwater basket weaving at Harvard is still socially superior to running a multi-mil…

==Until plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. stop being a part of the undesirable Other to middle and upper middle class Americans==

Source? I think most people view these jobs as the foundation of the American middle class. At least we do in the Midwest, where I grew up.

==Paying $100,000 for your kid to study underwater basket weaving at Harvard is still socially superior to running a multi-million dollar business in the trades.==

Having a Harvard degree gives you higher earning potential than a career in the trades [1].

==It is a problem of culture, not economics.==

Oddly, all the jobs you mention are historically union jobs. Meanwhile, one side of the political aisle has attempted to weaken unions over the past 4 decades. If we want people to embrace union jobs, maybe we should embrace unions?

[1] https://www.scholarshipcare.com/average-income-of-harvard-un...

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