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Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

theverge.com

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Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#851

Post by victords »

risyachka wrote: post #488
dannyw wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic Games can argue that a cheaper price results in more demand, ie more profits for them even if the unit price is the same. But I don’t think they need to argue that. The cornerstone of US antitrust law is cheaper prices for consumers. This example demonstrates that.

But the point of business is making money. Apple has no monopoly in smartphone market. There are many choices. And if the court will force them to lower prices - will it start forcing price policy on other non-monopoly companies?

The monopoly is not in the smartphone market. It’s about the monopoly behavior within the applications marketplace.

Google can have the argument that you can install different stores in their OS (or even apps directly), and so you’re not locked into the Apps provided by their store. Apple can not make the same argument.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#852

Post by fastball »

BillinghamJ wrote: post #848
fastball wrote: post #839

To everyone that is supporting Apple's position, let me run this hypothetical by you: You buy a Nespresso machine on Amazon. Some amount of the purchase price goes to Amazon for facilitating the transaction and delivering it to you, some goes to Nespresso for actually making the device. Cool. Then you get a pod subscription from Nespresso – let's say there is a touch screen on the coffee machine itself where you ente…

That is inaccurate. Your comparison would be closer if the purchase of pods was handled by Amazon Any comparison with physically shipped goods isn't going to be particularly relevant here

Ok, so to make the analogy near perfect, we need to add in the detail that Amazon doesn't allow Nespresso machines with this touch screen + subscription service to be sold on Amazon at all if Nespresso doesn't use Amazon to process the payment. But that is exactly how Amazon would require a 30% cut for a service they have no hand in. I wouldn't be happy about Amazon saying you can't sell a Nespresso machine with that feature on Amazon. It would be a ridiculous thing to do.

Epic providing digital currency to their users costs Apple literally nothing. Apple does not participate in it. If Apple wants to charge Epic for whatever it costs them to distribute Fortnite to users (e.g. bandwidth costs) then power to them.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#853

Post by emsy »

BillinghamJ wrote: post #848
fastball wrote: post #839

To everyone that is supporting Apple's position, let me run this hypothetical by you: You buy a Nespresso machine on Amazon. Some amount of the purchase price goes to Amazon for facilitating the transaction and delivering it to you, some goes to Nespresso for actually making the device. Cool. Then you get a pod subscription from Nespresso – let's say there is a touch screen on the coffee machine itself where you ente…

That is inaccurate. Your comparison would be closer if the purchase of pods was handled by Amazon Any comparison with physically shipped goods isn't going to be particularly relevant here

It’s a good enough analogy. Even with Amazon handling transactions two points hold up:

1) It’s none of Amazon’s business what I do with my machine after I bought it.

2) 30% for handling transactions and shipping is ludicrous.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#854

Post by BillinghamJ »

fastball wrote: post #852
BillinghamJ wrote: post #848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is inaccurate. Your comparison would be closer if the purchase of pods was handled by Amazon Any comparison with physically shipped goods isn't going to be particularly relevant here

Ok, so to make the analogy near perfect, we need to add in the detail that Amazon doesn't allow Nespresso machines with this touch screen + subscription service to be sold on Amazon at all if Nespresso doesn't use Amazon to process the payment. But that is exactly how Amazon would require a 30% cut for a service they have no hand in. I wouldn't be happy about Amazon saying you can't sell a Nespresso machine with that…

> Epic providing digital currency to their users costs Apple literally nothing

It's important to understand that this definitely isn't true. It probably doesn't cost them (anywhere near) 30%, but fraud, handling upset parents, providing a ubiquitous gift card system, etc etc. does have real operational and monetary cost. It's not just basic payment processing

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#855

Post by mrkramer »

dzonga wrote: post #358
mrkramer wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple says they do it because of security reasons. Windows' open and liberal way of doing things made it a fertile ground for millions of viruses. But I still think every OS should be open for developing and distribution of software no matter how serious malware threat is.

windows, is based because of the underlying os system fundamentals. once you've sandboxing in place. i.e apps are restricted to user level. then malware becomes something of the past.

Most of the modern Windows malware detects sandbox and never activates or some even escape sandbox environment.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#856

Post by AdrianB1 »

ralfn wrote: post #827
vogre wrote: post #810

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Taking a cut of say, 3%, to keep the app store running is forgivable. But 30% digging into users pocket is unpardonable. What makes you think that 3% cut is enough?

Because its the sort of above most transaction fees of most payment providers in the world. But Apple can ask whatever they want. They can't block side-loading though. That's the uncompetitive part. You can run your store and pick whatever terms you like. You can't use your marketshare in hardware sales to bundle a forced store. Imagine Tesla charging you 30% of any grocery shopping (i.e. would refuse to open the doo…

Not trying to debate, just having an idea: the percentage versus fix cost is coming from the tax system. You don't pay a fix dollar tax per citizen, but a percentage of your income. I can see private companies doing the same.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#857

Post by erostrate »

dustinmoris wrote: post #698
mapgrep wrote: post #198

You could argue about Apple's rights, or citizens' free speech rights, or consumer rights, under existing law. It would be an interesting discussion because I think it's a lot more complicated an issue that most people appreciate. But really why not talk about how we think things should work on platforms like iOS? What should the law be? What protects essential human rights, encourages creativity, and allows business…

> Personally, I would argue that consumers should have a legal right to install whatever software they wish on a product they have purchased, including onto the bundled operating system I fundamentally disagree and this is also a misrepresentation of the current situation. If I buy an open operating system which advertises that I can run on it what pleases me then I should have the right to carry out this freedom of…

This argument works as long as there is healthy competition, so that consumer's preferences get reflected in the offer. If the market is a monopoly or duopoly you could get very undesirable outcomes.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#858

Post by fastball »

BillinghamJ wrote: post #854
fastball wrote: post #852

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so to make the analogy near perfect, we need to add in the detail that Amazon doesn't allow Nespresso machines with this touch screen + subscription service to be sold on Amazon at all if Nespresso doesn't use Amazon to process the payment. But that is exactly how Amazon would require a 30% cut for a service they have no hand in. I wouldn't be happy about Amazon saying you can't sell a Nespresso machine with that…

> Epic providing digital currency to their users costs Apple literally nothing It's important to understand that this definitely isn't true. It probably doesn't cost them (anywhere near) 30%, but fraud, handling upset parents, providing a ubiquitous gift card system, etc etc. does have real operational and monetary cost. It's not just basic payment processing

No, the whole point is that Epic wants to be able to handle payments themselves. Their app, as they submitted it to the App Store, does not have Apple involved in the purchasing of digital currency at all. And Apple is saying there cannot be an app that doesn't have them as the payment provider.

Just like if Amazon said Nespresso couldn't sell a machine on Amazon that doesn't use Amazon as the payment processor when handling pod subscriptions.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#859

Post by krige »

rottingfruit wrote: post #752
mobilemidget wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

afaik google kicked them out of the store too. https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2020/8/13/21368079/for...

The reason I, and I assume many others, have less of a problem with that is that you can fairly easily still download and play fortnite without the Play Store. As far as I know that’s not an option on iOS outside of jailbreaking your phone.

Epic disagrees as they've just filed a lawsuit vs google as well:

https://twitter.com/Slasher/status/1294073105376333825

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#860

Post by philliphaydon »

ralfn wrote: post #827
vogre wrote: post #810

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Taking a cut of say, 3%, to keep the app store running is forgivable. But 30% digging into users pocket is unpardonable. What makes you think that 3% cut is enough?

Because its the sort of above most transaction fees of most payment providers in the world. But Apple can ask whatever they want. They can't block side-loading though. That's the uncompetitive part. You can run your store and pick whatever terms you like. You can't use your marketshare in hardware sales to bundle a forced store. Imagine Tesla charging you 30% of any grocery shopping (i.e. would refuse to open the doo…

I don't want side-loading apps on iPhone. The moment you allow side-loading you can no longer trust the apps on a phone. Is it really facebook or was facebook removed and replaced with something else.
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