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Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

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Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#831

Post by ralfn »

speleding wrote: post #826
alkonaut wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we disregard the app purchase (which few complain about) and focus on in-app purchases now. E.g. for buying fortnite hats or netflix subscriptions, where the in-app purchase is NOT processed by apple, surely that can't give rise to any kind of added costs for apple (customer support, transaction costs)?

In-app purchases are processed by apple as well.

No, in-app purchases are forced to BE proccessed by Apple.

Epic would like to proccess these themselves. They dont want apple to turn on their economic output. When you charge money for the work others do -- that's like communism.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#832

Post by tsimionescu »

deergomoo wrote: post #726
danShumway wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would the ability to sideload apps force you to install apps outside of the Apple store? I'm not forced to use FDroid just because I have an Android phone. People aren't arguing that the app store should go away, just that consumers should have a choice. As an analogy, if I want OEM care for my car, I can get that. It's more expensive, but it offers me strict guarantees about where parts are coming from, and I do…

If you look at the Mac as an example, the vast majority of software is still distributed outside the Mac App Store, usually because either: - The software is free and the developer doesn't want to pay $99/year to Apple - The software is paid but the developer either doesn't want to give 30% to Apple, or they want to use a pricing model incompatible with the App Store (discounted upgrade pricing, rolling subscriptions…

> I believe that if sideloading was feasible for iOS, many developers (and certainly the big players) would pull out of the App Store completely.

Why do you believe that, when it hasn't happened with the only other comparable platform after years and years of supporting this model?

Windows and Mac are not comparable, as people are not as used to their respective stores, and lots of pre-existing software actually has to go out of its way to integrate with the store, instead of the other way around.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#833

Post by fsewe20 »

hijklmno wrote: post #696

It's not Apple vs. Fortnite. It's actually Apple vs. Users. Apple has been taking us for a ride this whole time. We pay damn much and buy the phone. It is the user's property from then on. What the user install's and uninstall's from his phone should be his decision. Taking a cut of say, 3%, to keep the app store running is forgivable. But 30% digging into users pocket is unpardonable. Apple is no longer the underdog…

It is interesting that we criticise monopoly in one form (apple), but encourage it in another ("It is the user's property"). If we go down the logical road of "why monopoly is bad" it is because property may not be utilised in the most effective way for the common good, all property is monopoly.

I wonder if auction based app store costs are a possible solution to the increasing developer frustration with Apple? Self Assessed Licenses Sold via Auction across many marketplaces may help combat monopoly.

I can see Apple (with their privacy angle) moving towards facilitating users selling their data/data unions. Perhaps some other radical-liberalism ideas could come through too.

https://www.radicalxchange.org/concepts/

https://blog.radicalxchange.org/blog/posts/millennials-zoome...

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#834

Post by nabla9 »

8fingerlouie wrote: post #818

I don't get the problem. The App Store (Apple or Google) is a software distribution platform run by the owner of the platform. The platform has rules to cover costs and generate profit. Participation is entirely voluntary. Epic Games has violated the TOS of the platform, and for this both Google and Apple has removed their app(s) from their platforms. Again, participation is entirely voluntary, but if you participate…

Just because company creates and operates a market does not mean that they can act without restrictions or disregard competition law once the market becomes economically important.

I'm not very familiar with the US wording in the US law but EC defines relevant market as: "A relevant product market comprises all those products and/or services which are regarded as interchangeable or substitutable by the consumer by reason of the products' characteristics, their prices and their intended use"

A relevant market in this case is iOS App store and the payment system. Not smartphone market. Epic is not selling phones.

(I don't know where you get the voluntary participation argument, maybe that's some idealistic political viewpoint, but it's not the only thing that matters in competition law and antitrust)

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#835

Post by alkonaut »

speleding wrote: post #826
alkonaut wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we disregard the app purchase (which few complain about) and focus on in-app purchases now. E.g. for buying fortnite hats or netflix subscriptions, where the in-app purchase is NOT processed by apple, surely that can't give rise to any kind of added costs for apple (customer support, transaction costs)?

In-app purchases are processed by apple as well.

No, not when they are angered by apps NOT doing that (e.g. Epic in this case, or netflix/spotify charging for subscriptions outside, etc).

This discussion is about Epic charging for in-app things outside of Apple's control. So apple can't use the argument that they have costs (support, payment) for those transactions.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#836

Post by rimliu »

hijklmno wrote: post #696

It's not Apple vs. Fortnite. It's actually Apple vs. Users. Apple has been taking us for a ride this whole time. We pay damn much and buy the phone. It is the user's property from then on. What the user install's and uninstall's from his phone should be his decision. Taking a cut of say, 3%, to keep the app store running is forgivable. But 30% digging into users pocket is unpardonable. Apple is no longer the underdog…

Would you also support ditching all the free apps from the App Store?

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#837

Post by mantap »

vogre wrote: post #810
hijklmno wrote: post #696

It's not Apple vs. Fortnite. It's actually Apple vs. Users. Apple has been taking us for a ride this whole time. We pay damn much and buy the phone. It is the user's property from then on. What the user install's and uninstall's from his phone should be his decision. Taking a cut of say, 3%, to keep the app store running is forgivable. But 30% digging into users pocket is unpardonable. Apple is no longer the underdog…

>Taking a cut of say, 3%, to keep the app store running is forgivable. But 30% digging into users pocket is unpardonable. What makes you think that 3% cut is enough?

Nobody knows because there are no market forces to determine what the cut should be. Nobody can distribute apps other than Apple, they just declare that they want/need 30% and everybody else has to pay it.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#838

Post by ohgodplsno »

Polylactic_acid wrote: post #537
Whatarethese wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having to launch games from 5 different shitty desktop programs is terrible for the user.

Its not just bad UX. Its horrific for privacy. Epic games on windows load a rootkit in to the kernel that starts a boot even while the game is not running.

Absolutely not. You're thinking of Riot Games' anticheat for Valorant.

The worst EGS does is enumerating running processes and DLL.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#839

Post by fastball »

To everyone that is supporting Apple's position, let me run this hypothetical by you:

You buy a Nespresso machine on Amazon. Some amount of the purchase price goes to Amazon for facilitating the transaction and delivering it to you, some goes to Nespresso for actually making the device. Cool. Then you get a pod subscription from Nespresso – let's say there is a touch screen on the coffee machine itself where you enter your details to subscribe. Now, Nespresso ships pods to your house every month. Amazon then says that because the machine was originally bought on Amazon, they are entitled to a 30% cut of that ongoing subscription price, even though the subscription is neither facilitated nor fulfilled by Amazon.

I think we can all agree that would be ridiculous.

That is what Apple is doing.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#840

Post by InvOfSmallC »

badestrand wrote: post #761
BoboDupla wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be mistaken, but wasn't this the policy Apple had since the beginning of AppStore? Every developer and user knew from the beginning what they are getting into. With Windows it is different, no? It would be a drastic change to a product, which operated differently at the beginning.

Yes, the fee has been there since the beginning, if you use their payment system. I think the new and problematic policy is that they now - forbid you to use other payment systems than their own - forbid you to just add the 30% to your price on iOS compared to other platforms - forbid you to mention to the user that they can pay on the company's website or through other channels Also their own product's don't have to…

Honestly, it escapes me how these three condition can be legal conditions. I don't in EU you can actually do that.
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