Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#271

Post by Townley » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

eggbrain wrote: post #29

lordleft wrote: post #6

Imagine if Microsoft did this on PCs. a) prohibiting the installation of non-windows store software (sideloading) and b) insisting that all purchases done via apps give them a 30% cut. I think this is a ridiculous practice on the behalf of Apple.

I mean, couldn't we just replace Microsoft->Sony and PC->Playstation and the argument falls apart a bit? > Imagine if Sony did this on Playstation. a) prohibiting the installation of non-PlayStation games and b) insisting that all purchases done via their store give them a 30% cut. Many platforms are like this -- and many also have the majority marketshare. Is this a call to redefine what platforms can and cannot con…

The price was right on a PS VR, so I got one and thought briefly about playing around with VR using Unity. The ecosystem was so locked down (and becoming an official developer such a challenge) that I gave up and never looked back.

The appeal of developing in Apple's ecosystem has always been the exposure to large audiences, the (relatively decent) tooling, and the ability to creatively actualize your ideas. That last one goes away when Apple starts looking more like Sony.

I'll leave it up to lawyers to decide if this is illegal, but I know this certainly makes me less excited about developing my next iOS/OSX app

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#272

Post by Entalpi » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

lordleft wrote: post #6

Imagine if Microsoft did this on PCs. a) prohibiting the installation of non-windows store software (sideloading) and b) insisting that all purchases done via apps give them a 30% cut. I think this is a ridiculous practice on the behalf of Apple.

Except Microsoft did not create and sol you the hardware?

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#273

Post by tomohawk » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

Similar to the old AT&T monopoly. You were not allowed to connect any non-AT&T equipment to the network.

You could buy an answering machine, but could not (legally) hook it up as it was not invented by AT&T, and they did not have one until the patents expired.

Most people ended up renting their phones and other equipment from AT&T. In some cases, that was the only option. Being able to buy a phone was a novel experience for many people.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/1983/01/31/m...

Breaking up AT&T led to a lot of innovation, and communication options that were at most science fiction at the time. The monopoly was probably necessary at one point, but lasted way too long. Let's not let these monopolies last too long.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#274

Post by antaviana » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

a9entroy wrote: post #178

Findeton wrote: post #13

I don't think this should be regulated at all. Apple should be able to impose their rules in their systems. Let's be clear about this, if people are choosing to buy these black-box closed handheld computing devices, there are consequences that come with that choice.

I don't agree. Millions (maybe even billions) of people user their devices and the country absolutely should regulate their systems. As an extreme example imagine if Apple tomorrow said that all apps have to pay a 95% cut instead of a 30% cut and all customers have to pay $20/month to use Wifi or internet on their iPhone. Obviously this is unlikely to happen but then I would expect the govt. to intervene. If Apple wa…

I wonder if you are having in mind the same government that wants a hefty cut of the sale of TikTok to Microsoft.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#275

Post by jay_kyburz » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

lordleft wrote: post #6

Imagine if Microsoft did this on PCs. a) prohibiting the installation of non-windows store software (sideloading) and b) insisting that all purchases done via apps give them a 30% cut. I think this is a ridiculous practice on the behalf of Apple.

Microsoft does do it on the Xbox.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#276

Post by fastball » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:15 PM UTC

admiral33 wrote: post #265

mapgrep wrote: post #198

You could argue about Apple's rights, or citizens' free speech rights, or consumer rights, under existing law. It would be an interesting discussion because I think it's a lot more complicated an issue that most people appreciate. But really why not talk about how we think things should work on platforms like iOS? What should the law be? What protects essential human rights, encourages creativity, and allows business…

Separate hardware and software. If you buy an iPhone, you have the right to put whatever software you want on it. Similarly - Apple can restrict whatever software they provide to you on those devices in return. Future software updates, App store, iCloud etc.

The problem is that a lot of people actually like how hard it is to sideload content onto an iPhone, because it effectively bricks stolen ones, which is a pretty good deterrent.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#277

Post by mulmen » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:15 PM UTC

I get hung up in the semantics of monopoly. I don't think it really applies here because Android exists. But if we frame this as an anti-competitive question I think it is very clear Apple's practices are anti-competitive.

I'm not a fan of diluting the term "monopoly", I think we need modern laws to encourage competition. Maybe I just need to get over my pedantry.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#278

Post by tomohawk » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:15 PM UTC

mapgrep wrote: post #198

You could argue about Apple's rights, or citizens' free speech rights, or consumer rights, under existing law. It would be an interesting discussion because I think it's a lot more complicated an issue that most people appreciate. But really why not talk about how we think things should work on platforms like iOS? What should the law be? What protects essential human rights, encourages creativity, and allows business…

According to the law, a monopoly is not treated like a normal company - they have much less latitude in their actions because a monopoly in one area can easily be used to acquire a monopoly in another area.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#279

Post by csharptwdec19 » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

SolarNet wrote: post #124

jaeming wrote: post #99

... the developer on Thursday implemented its own in-app payment system that bypassed Apple’s standard 30 percent fee. ...1,000 V-bucks, which is roughly equivalent to $10 in-game Fortnite currency, now costs just $7.99 if you use Epic direct payment instead of the standard Apple payment processing. Normally, that amount of currency costs $9.99. Epic says, in this case, customers keep the extra savings, not the compa…

I mean, in theory third party payment processors still take a cut. I don't think it's a dollar on a 7 dollar payment. But it's also not marginal. The credit card companies themselves charge 3.00%+0.10 at the reasonable maximum (or roughly $0.31). That is still not even counting the payment processor's fees (which pay the credit card company's fees for you). I mean the "7 dollar price" is all artificial anyway, it doe…

I'd also guess that the Processor/CC Companies likely charge a bit more for this specific 'industry'; Processors and CC Companies often look at the products you are selling and what the overall risk is for things like chargebacks.

This is part of why a lot of mom & pop shops still have a 5 or 10 dollar minimum for card transactions; When I worked at a computer shop in an almost-sketchy neighborhood our minimum fee was Two whole dollars.

Given the frequency of refunds and the like, I'd assume Epic is probably not making much, if anything extra on top of this.

This may actually close a ban-hopping/stalling gap. I've seen people claim that if you do a refund for an App store purchase, the publisher may not even know about the refund for 2-3 months after it was requested/granted. This likely shortens Epic's time to react and ban people for requesting fraudulent refunds.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#280

Post by 9HZZRfNlpR » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

ernst_klim wrote: post #262

kqvamxurcagg wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a consumer, why can't there be an alternative App Store on IoS if I don't like the Apple terms? Apple shouldn't force consumers and developers to provide them with 30%.

If you don't like the service or product, don't buy it. There are Android, Sailfish, Postmarket, Mer. It's extremely unethical in my opinion to force some service provider to adjust the service to your needs/preferences.

Why on earth is it unethical?