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Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

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Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#401

Post by smnrchrds »

parasubvert wrote: post #390
smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

A market equilibrium is reached and it’s called anti-competitive behaviour. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. I suppose the state could implement price controls and force Rogers et al to lower their prices. That worked well in the past!

What has worked in other countries, namely Australia, is MVNOs. The government is considering mandating telecom companies to give MVNOs access to their network, like they mandate cable and internet companies, but it is unlikely such a decision would be made anytime soon. Australia is truly a success story. I wouldn't mind if Canada's telecom landscape becomes more similar to Australia's.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#402

Post by dathinab »

lliamander wrote: post #393
dathinab wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it only runs games (and maybe multimedia). Phone run everything from games over office apps to unlocking you apartment doors or handling the check-in at a hotel (yes some hotels have app based check-in). (And in the end Apps is just a handy short form of Application, so you could say even the name kinda implicates this ;=) )

That's a software limitation, not a hardware limitation. An iPhone is also a general purpose computer that is limited (to a lesser extent ) by the software.

Sure what they have in common is:

- A general purpose hardware with specific less general purpose hardware extensions.

Where they differ:

- By default allowing "mostly" any legal kind of software, but then putting absurd constraints on it.

- By default only allowing games and some multimedia and maybe then putting absurd constraints on it (maybe because idk tbh).

I.e. even with apples constraints iOs operates as a general purpose platform while XBox/PS5/Switch do not.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#403

Post by lancepioch »

smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

You gave an example of price fixing, not anti competitive behavior. They don't have to meet up in a secret room either for it to count. If they are constantly adjusting their prices to all be exactly the same, that is illegal in the U.S. as price fixing.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#404

Post by a_e_k »

jariel wrote: post #180
threatofrain wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user I'm quite happy with Apple intermediating my relationship with companies that seek to do business with me over the phone, and I'd actually be happier if Apple took over more of my relationships. I don't want a situation where 10 apps means 10 different privacy agreements. I also don't want to deal with app companies directly for returns or their custom payment solutions — an "Amazon" is way better.

This comment misses the point though. If you want to be happy with using the store for all your life's needs - that's completely fine. Nobody will argue with you here. Otherwise, people should be able to download as they please. Imagine if your electricity company only allowed 'approved Toasters' on their electric grid, complete with special plugins, and a 30% cut of the device. It's an anti-competitive practice as o…

> Imagine if your electricity company only allowed 'approved Toasters' on their electric grid, complete with special plugins, and a 30% cut of the device.

You mean like the days when Ma Bell limited the selection of phones that people could choose from?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_AT%26T#Monopoly: 'Each phone was leased from AT&T on a monthly basis by customers, who generally paid for their phone and its connection many times over in cumulative lease fees. This monopoly made millions of extra dollars for AT&T, which had the secondary effect of greatly limiting phone choices and styles. AT&T strictly enforced policies against buying and using phones by other manufacturers that had not first been transferred to and re-rented from the local Bell monopoly. Many phones made by Western Electric thus carried the following disclaimer permanently molded into their housings: "BELL SYSTEM PROPERTY — NOT FOR SALE."'

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#405

Post by kirillzubovsky »

smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

I worked for one of the Canadian carriers, and they are only not a monopoly as far as the paper definition is concerned, but in practice they do in fact gather in smoke-filled rooms and decide to screw their customers (your words, not mine). They are also very good at pretending they don't.

Apple on the other hand has created an infrastructure to enable a billion interconnected devices, and they are now charging a fee to operate. They are not colluding or preventing competition, they are simply saying there's a price to play, and it's 30%.

It's natural that Fortnite doesn't want to share their profits, in the same way that Apple doesn't want to be the only ones taking the loses, but every time this question comes up, lots of comments assume Apple should bend over simply because it's bigger and wealthier.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#406

Post by kayfox »

Tehnix wrote: post #293
musicale wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is called tacit collusion. You see something like this with gasoline pricing - major brands will have "competing" stations across the street from each other, but their prices moves in lock step without a race to the bottom. Memory vendors have explicitly colluded in the past, but they really didn't need to - they just needed to copy their competitors' posted pricing. Presumably that is what they do now.…

Actually, that’s not correct about gas stations. Having worked at one, we would check the prices of the two others on the same road once every hour. These numbers were reported into HQ, and a price adjustment would be made to be lower. It’s very competitive and people are willing to drive or wait until a different time of day to get a lower price. EDIT: Maybe I should have said: that’s at least not the case everywher…

Some states in the United States limit the number of times a week a gas station can change their prices.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#407

Post by dathinab »

zo1 wrote: post #389
dathinab wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should not matter, if it does then it would be hard to call the US a "constitutional state"/"state of law".

Motives matter, and taking the motives of foreign-owned businesses into account when dealing with one of the largest businesses in the US is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. What if the motive behind this is to just destabilize the price of Apple? What if it's part of a large campaign to destabilize a lot of US companies, not just this one?

Law is meant to be kept , even if it isn't in you benefit.

That's the DEFINITION of "constitutional state"/"state of law".

It means the government can't just arbitrary bend the law if it fit's them on a case-by-case basis. If they want change they need to make a new law.

Even if Epic did act out on apple because of Chinese support the US has to handle the case fairly on basis of the facts of Apple abusing there marked power (which they obvious do, through not necessary illegally). Then, after or parallel to this they can decide how to handle the Chinese involvement, but this MUST NOT affect the given suite. That kinda what being a "constitutional state"/"state of law" is about. It's about being able to rely on the law being uphold independent on weather you family (or investors) might be crime lords or foreign powers or whatever.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#408

Post by Slartie »

zo1 wrote: post #389
dathinab wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should not matter, if it does then it would be hard to call the US a "constitutional state"/"state of law".

Motives matter, and taking the motives of foreign-owned businesses into account when dealing with one of the largest businesses in the US is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. What if the motive behind this is to just destabilize the price of Apple? What if it's part of a large campaign to destabilize a lot of US companies, not just this one?

Yeah, sure, because if Apple was no longer able to enforce a 30% cut on all in-app purchases, that would totally destabilize the price of Apple (stock, I assume). Because they make the hugely overwhelming share of their money from...in-app purchases?

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#409

Post by aaomidi »

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #363
grumple wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Epic doesn't need to pursue Apple iPhone customers Apple does not get to decide how the market operates. Only government gets to do that. Your statement makes it clear that they are committing anti-competitive practices.

Your statement seems inaccurate. Doesn't the Sony Playstation, or Microsoft's Xbox get to control how they operate? Don't movie theaters get to decide which movies are shown/not? Don't service providers like a nail salon or grocery store get to deny service? Other than for "protected categories" like sex, race, religion. e.g. "No shirt, no shoes, no service".

When these behaviors are being used to stifle competition they should be stopped too.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#410

Post by smnrchrds »

lancepioch wrote: post #403
smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

You gave an example of price fixing, not anti competitive behavior. They don't have to meet up in a secret room either for it to count. If they are constantly adjusting their prices to all be exactly the same, that is illegal in the U.S. as price fixing.

Price-fixing is an falls under the umbrella of anti-competitive behaviour. For example, at least in Canada, Competition Bureau is in charge of avoiding price-fixing. On FTC website, price-fixing page is filed under Competition Guidance.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...

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