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Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

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Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#261

Post by linuxhansl »

donor20 wrote: post #25
elliekelly wrote: post #12

What is Apple’s end game here? It seems like they’re fighting a losing battle and digging their own antitrust grave. Pretty clever on Epic’s part to specifically highlight how Apple’s app store fee hits the user directly. Pretty short-sighted of Apple to immediately pull an app for providing consumers with additional disclosure about where their money is going.

Good lord - on HN the monopoly comments are so crazy sometimes. What is the monopoly issue Apple has? Use android if you don't like Apple's product line. Apple is at 22% share.

Huh? All of Apple is (or soon will be) an entirely closed garden. You can harp on the literal meaning of the word "monopoly" all day, but Apple still makes a profit from a market dominating position. 30%? Just to be distributor? Really? If their H/W would be free I'd have some sympathy, but as is you pay for their devices and then pay a 30% fee. In my book this is way-laying.

I'm not using any Apple products for exactly that reason (other than what my workplace forces upon me.)

On my Android phone I can install any 3rd party app I please - there even is "F-Droid", a non-Google app store for open apps, which I use a lot.

And for desktops I use Linux. I guess I'm in the minority - even here on HN.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#262

Post by KMnO4 »

girishso wrote: post #63
KMnO4 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free certificates last a week. You can also pay Apple $99 to get a certificate that lasts a year, or pay a "UDID registration" website around $10 for the same (with some limitations).

What’s UDID registration website?

In order to test developer beta releases, you need a paid Apple developer account. Obviously it wouldn't be great if you had to pay $99 for every device (or employee at your business) just to test on the latest beta release, so Apple allows you to register up to 100 devices on your paid developer account.

Some people realized that they could sell each of those 100 slots at $5-10 to people who really wanted to use the beta (NB: previously iOS did not have public betas), hence "UDID registration".

Later, some of those people realized they could also sell you the code signing certificate that's generated by the real Apple developer account; valid for up to 1 year. That means you have the option of purchasing a real code signing certificate that allows you to sideload apps on non-jailbroken iPhones.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#263

Post by nsriv »

giarc wrote: post #186
daveidol wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an "undeniable right" but it's also not like there are a lot of other options. You can say "just move to another platform" or "then make your own platform" but you also have to be a realist. This is why antitrust laws exist - sometimes the market realities make this nearly impossible.

But where is the line of lots of options vs not a lot of options? iOS isn't even the most popular mobile operating system.

It's handled case-by-case, that's the point of the legislative oversight system.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#264

Post by crazypython »

slongfield wrote: post #83
ecf wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t Epic take a cut out of every single purchase made of a game built with Unreal Engine? Seems kinda hypocritical that they’re taking this stance when their licensing model is arguably just as burdensome on developers. In my opinion, Epic should not put their app on the App Store if they don’t like the terms, just as they would tell a developer to not use their engine if they don’t like the terms.

If a developer doesn't like Unreal's terms, there are other game engines. If a developer doesn't like Apple's terms, there are no viable alternatives for iOS distribution.

Most people don't have more than one phone. Phones are used for more than gaming. If a developer doesn't like Apple's terms, they can't distribute on iOS, except through a web app.

Perhaps PWA+WebGPU will solve this.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#265

Post by shadowgovt »

Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #200
naravara wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems ill-advised for Epic, in particular. The fight they're picking will logically end in a regulatory hammer coming down and that hammer is going to hit Epic a lot harder than Apple just because Epic is even more reliant on extracting revenue from being a platform owner than Apple is.

Epic's platform is Unreal Engine. The key difference is Unreal Engine is not the only game engine. You can use another game engine and gain access to the exact same user base . You could certainly argue Epic Games have made anti-competitive plays. However, they're not stupid, they even fund their "competitors" https://gamefromscratch.com/godot-receives-epic-megagrant/ .

... and the Epic Game Store. They're setting themselves up for building precedent where in the future, an MMO uses EGS for distribution and bypasses the EGS payment model, and they won't have any legal teeth to challenge that without getting hit in the face with precedent they helped set.

Which may actually be the plan, as the EGS isn't the only revenue feather in their cap. If they're fine taking that hit because they get game devs twice (selling them distribution and selling them an engine their game is written in), more power to them.

In theory, one can model Apple the same way (i.e. the App Store is a distribution channel to encourage people to buy Apple hardware so they can use the channel), but it sounds like maybe Apple found a great rent opportunity and is reluctant to let it go. Time for someone to remind them they're a hardware company that writes software as an excuse for people to buy their hardware. ;)

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#266

Post by ss3000 »

shadowgovt wrote: post #255
smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

That sounds like the kind of thing that doesn't begin to change until and unless someone either starts putting up their own towers or VoIP becomes ubiquitous enough to be a real threat to the cell business model.

This has been attempted before. Wind Mobile (now Freedom Mobile) was an upstart carrier that attempted to compete. They ended up just getting acquired though.

Their Wikipedia article paints a pretty bleak and accurate picture of the "competitive" landscape:

> Freedom Mobile Inc. is a Canadian wireless telecommunications provider owned by Shaw Communications. With 1,767,155 active subscribers (as of the end of February 29, 2020) in urban areas of Ontario, British Columbia and Alberta, it is Canada's fourth largest mobile network operator with 5% market share.[3]

> Founded in 2008 as Wind Mobile by the telecommunications company Globalive, Freedom was one of several new mobile carriers launched in Canada in 2008 after a government initiative to encourage competition in the wireless sector alongside Mobilicity (later acquired by Rogers Communications) and Public Mobile (later acquired by Telus).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Mobile

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#267

Post by dagaci »

threatofrain wrote: post #21
FreakyT wrote: post #4

Really hoping regulators crack down hard on Apple's clearly anticompetitive practices. If Apple allowed sideloading the entire point would be, of course, moot, but Apple's continued refusal to allow this is really the biggest problem, IMO.

As a user I'm quite happy with Apple intermediating my relationship with companies that seek to do business with me over the phone, and I'd actually be happier if Apple took over more of my relationships. I don't want a situation where 10 apps means 10 different privacy agreements. I also don't want to deal with app companies directly for returns or their custom payment solutions — an "Amazon" is way better.

That is quite fine for your personality and capabilities, however there are a lot of people who would love to have the freedom to choose differently.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#268

Post by justicezyx »

I feel that Apple made a mistake.

App store fees are on the unjustified side in the current spectrum of value assessment.

The more reasonable approach is to figure out ways for customers to get more values from the platform, instead of extracting more efficiently.

I bet this decision is some form of lower-to-middle level decision, without consulting Tim and his close subordinates. I would expect Tim and his close subordinates to be sensitive enough to at least not doing something so abruptly (not that it's not complying with the rules). I would guess this decision didn't even surfaced to VP level. AFAIK, VPs should be owning such sensitive decisions at Apple.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#270

Post by [deleted] »

bohemian99 wrote: post #192
ecf wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there are other Smartphone platforms with their own store, correct? I don’t know why people feel it’s their undeniable right to be able to provide an app to iOS users.

It's about monopolization. Should a company be able to vertically integrate and install a toll booth to profit off of all developers on their platform? Or does that hurt consumers more than it would hurt businesses to separate that power?

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