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Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

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Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#251

Post by detaro »

baddox wrote: post #143
slongfield wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a developer doesn't like Unreal's terms, there are other game engines. If a developer doesn't like Apple's terms, there are no viable alternatives for iOS distribution.

Okay, but imagine that Fortnite used Unreal but wasn’t created by the creators of Unreal. Do you think that Fortnite would be more comfortable playing chicken with the App Store and risking getting banned like this, or playing chicken with the game engine that their entire game is implemented with? In practice I would say a game engine has more leverage over a game developer than a single distribution platform.

If Unreal were the problem, Fortnite could have chosen a different game engine at the start (this is not about terms changing after all) and it would not affect their options to sell to customers. And while porting would be expensive, it would be possible without loosing access to customers. Nobody doesn't buy a game because they bought an unreal-only PC somewhere.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#252

Post by redthrow »

smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

In Canada, Fido has $10/m + tax "Tablet Plan" which can be used on phones and gives you 4GB/m data. You may need to find someone who already has a Fido plan.

I use the 2ndLine app for (very rare) calls and SMS. It gives you a local number. Data-only is the most cost effective imo

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#253

Post by aaomidi »

Someone wrote: post #174
aaomidi wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If past cases are something to go by, there is a very real risk here for Apple and they're digging their own regulatory grave by behaving like this.

Not doing anything might be worse. Within a month, all major money-making apps would make a similar move, hiding the functionality from Apple’s review process and then activating it once most of their users have upgraded. Apple could spend time and money trying to find such hidden features, but that would mean many major apps would see no updates. That’s a losing game, too, even if they are successful at detecting su…

> Allowing this is guaranteeing the end of the App Store

Is it though? Has the play store ended because Google allows side loading?

The issue here is Apple simply doesn't really take risks and innovate to be the first in an industry. They take existing tech, polish them VERY well, and then try to make a lot of money off of it.

Problem is they're trying to leverage their position to run other companies out of business (Spotify and Apple music for example, or Netflix and Apple TV+)

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#254

Post by d0m »

giarc wrote: post #186
daveidol wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an "undeniable right" but it's also not like there are a lot of other options. You can say "just move to another platform" or "then make your own platform" but you also have to be a realist. This is why antitrust laws exist - sometimes the market realities make this nearly impossible.

But where is the line of lots of options vs not a lot of options? iOS isn't even the most popular mobile operating system.

For some market it is. Our users were 80%+ on ios

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#255

Post by shadowgovt »

smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

That sounds like the kind of thing that doesn't begin to change until and unless someone either starts putting up their own towers or VoIP becomes ubiquitous enough to be a real threat to the cell business model.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#256

Post by umvi »

musicale wrote: post #235
smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

I think this is called tacit collusion. You see something like this with gasoline pricing - major brands will have "competing" stations across the street from each other, but their prices moves in lock step without a race to the bottom. Memory vendors have explicitly colluded in the past, but they really didn't need to - they just needed to copy their competitors' posted pricing. Presumably that is what they do now.…

> You tend to see it with gasoline pricing as well - all the major companies have nearly identical prices.

Yeah because otherwise you make no money on gas. If I undercut the store across the street by a penny, they will then immediately match me or undercut by a penny. Pretty soon, we are at the break-even point and can't go lower without losing money. That's not tacit collusion, that's just a race to the bottom.

There's a big difference between all major app stores taking 30% every time money changes hands, and a race-to-the-bottom industry like milk or gasoline. Try starting a dairy farm - I think you'll find you won't be able to price your milk lower than your competition, and as a result your milk will be the same price everyone else's has been for the past 50 years - ~$2-3/gallon.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#257

Post by luisfmh »

smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

Not to contradict your point, because I agree fully, but given how concisely you put it, I'd be interested in what your thoughts are on Freedom Mobile? I know they're kind of independent, but also their coverage sucks.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#258

Post by josephcsible »

basch wrote: post #69
stefan_ wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a close and shut case of consumer harm right here.

Apple can argue its 30% surcharge protects consumers from their payment information being tied to each individual product, making canceling easier and buying things safer.

If that were the legitimate reason, then they could accomplish the same goal by requiring all in-app purchases to have the option of going through them, rather than exclusively going through them. Then people who cared enough to pay the 30% Apple tax could have that protection, and the rest of us could save a lot of money.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#259

Post by smnrchrds »

beached_whale wrote: post #248
smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

For locations in Canada with a local cell provider or internet provider, the pricing is much better. Either lower prices, more services for price point, or a combination of both. I suspect this is/was part of the push to get non-incumbents into the cell market.

Even then, it's just a matter of time before they get assimilated into the Borg. Manitoba used to have MTS, until it was bought by Bell. I would not be surprised if in 20 years Vidéotron and SaksTel would be long gone too.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#260

Post by threatofrain »

shajznnckfke wrote: post #29
threatofrain wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user I'm quite happy with Apple intermediating my relationship with companies that seek to do business with me over the phone, and I'd actually be happier if Apple took over more of my relationships. I don't want a situation where 10 apps means 10 different privacy agreements. I also don't want to deal with app companies directly for returns or their custom payment solutions — an "Amazon" is way better.

> and I'd actually be happier if Apple took over more of my relationships. I’m really curious what you mean by this. Which additional transactions do you wish Apple would take a 30% cut on? You DoorDash orders, your rent, your salary?

Isn't the situation similar with Amazon? And how much higher are the prices for the consumers, in return for the Amazon experience? What is the Amazon tax to the consumer?
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