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Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

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Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#201

Post by paulgb »

almost_usual wrote: post #145
meheleventyone wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t it the other way around that iOS users should be able to shop in competing stores for their apps? It’s just very few users have any real ability to affect that sort of change.

I wouldn’t be opposed to this but Apple could make a case that using a competing app store voids warranty or care because they can no longer guarantee the software is ‘safe’ for iOS.

General computing platforms, in which you can run arbitrary unsigned code without violating the warranty, exist. In fact, Apple has a major business in manufacturing them (MacBook, etc.)

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#202

Post by valuearb »

kllrnohj wrote: post #150
molszanski wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't like every online "platform" take 30% cut? Google play, playstation store, steam, xbox store, nintendo store?

Steam changed a while back: https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/30/18120577/valve-steam-gam... It's now 30% for the first $10 million, 25% for $10-$50 million, and 20% thereafter. Also relevant here would be Epic Games Store, which is 12%. Also relevant here, is payment processors are way, way less than 30%, which is all that's used/needed for in-app purchases.

Paynent processors are entirely irrelevant to this discussion, given app stores do far more than just payment processing.

Given publicly reported financials for Apples services gross margins imply a break even around 10%, I doubt any successful App Store offering similar services could survive on less than 15%.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#203

Post by cma »

donor20 wrote: post #25
elliekelly wrote: post #12

What is Apple’s end game here? It seems like they’re fighting a losing battle and digging their own antitrust grave. Pretty clever on Epic’s part to specifically highlight how Apple’s app store fee hits the user directly. Pretty short-sighted of Apple to immediately pull an app for providing consumers with additional disclosure about where their money is going.

Good lord - on HN the monopoly comments are so crazy sometimes. What is the monopoly issue Apple has? Use android if you don't like Apple's product line. Apple is at 22% share.

Apple is at a much higher dollar share of the high-spending consumer segment that is relevant to app developers.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#204

Post by almost_usual »

damnyou wrote: post #161
almost_usual wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t be opposed to this but Apple could make a case that using a competing app store voids warranty or care because they can no longer guarantee the software is ‘safe’ for iOS.

Yes, which is why they should be mandated by law to include them anyway. Maybe that will force them to figure out a better security strategy.

I don’t think our current law makers are technically competent enough to understand this.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#205

Post by happytoexplain »

coreblocks wrote: post #85
ecf wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t Epic take a cut out of every single purchase made of a game built with Unreal Engine? Seems kinda hypocritical that they’re taking this stance when their licensing model is arguably just as burdensome on developers. In my opinion, Epic should not put their app on the App Store if they don’t like the terms, just as they would tell a developer to not use their engine if they don’t like the terms.

Businesses don’t make money by worrying about morality or worrying about hypocrisy.

They certainly can, if indirectly.

Edit: "do" -> "can"

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#206

Post by nostrademons »

xoxoy wrote: post #8

Fortnite of course expected this: seems like they’ve prepared a short video mocking Apple’s old super bowl ad 1984 to premiere in an hour https://twitter.com/fortnitegame/status/1293984290326433792?...

They also just filed a lawsuit (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24147486).

The strategist in me thinks that Epic Payments is a provocation rather than a product, they've been in touch with state attorney generals about Apple's antitrust situation, and the real goal is to get that lawsuit out, bring the antitrust hammer down on Apple, and maybe get some free PR and marketing from the press cycle.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#207

Post by ryneandal »

voidpointercast wrote: post #124
ryneandal wrote: post #97

Given Epic's history, this is entirely them taking the lead and trying to fight for smaller game devs. Kudos to them.

That seems blindly naive but okay.

I mean, there's obviously business-related reasons as well, but cutting dev cuts to 12% on EGS, waiving royalties on first $1MM of revenue for UE5 games, and providing source for UE4 have all been incredibly massive boons to the indie game dev scene. Benevolence within the industry can foster good will with developers, which positively impacts their bottom line.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#208

Post by linuxhansl »

ecf wrote: post #46
xoxoy wrote: post #8

Fortnite of course expected this: seems like they’ve prepared a short video mocking Apple’s old super bowl ad 1984 to premiere in an hour https://twitter.com/fortnitegame/status/1293984290326433792?...

Doesn’t Epic take a cut out of every single purchase made of a game built with Unreal Engine? Seems kinda hypocritical that they’re taking this stance when their licensing model is arguably just as burdensome on developers. In my opinion, Epic should not put their app on the App Store if they don’t like the terms, just as they would tell a developer to not use their engine if they don’t like the terms.

Apple's AppStore is a distribution channel.

Taking a 30% cut of all future revenue from the game just because they established the initial install is waylaying!

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#209

Post by areoform »

The transparent sophistication of this ploy is strangely delightful. And very reminiscent of Steve Jobs' e-book negotiation emails, https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/the-ste...

We have been given court-side seats to a sophisticated game of feints and dramatic negotiation. Pre-Game, Epic lined their shot with care. They've come prepared with media and assets, (no doubt) lawyers (and potential lawsuits?), PR strategy, regulatory strategy etc. They know the argument they would like to make. And they know how to make it.

How will Apple respond? Will Epic's strong start lead to a strong finish?

Their machinations have been laid scandalously bare. If you listen closely, you can hear your local business school clickety-clacking away to a ludicrously overpriced case study. And the local #hustle blogger RSI their way to a million views.

O'Think of the great blog posts and MBA lessons this drama will make!

edit: and they've filed for relief! https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/apple-complaint-734589783.pdf

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#210

Post by detaro »

baddox wrote: post #153
daveidol wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an "undeniable right" but it's also not like there are a lot of other options. You can say "just move to another platform" or "then make your own platform" but you also have to be a realist. This is why antitrust laws exist - sometimes the market realities make this nearly impossible.

It’s no more realistic to say “if you don’t like the licensing terms of your game engine then just rewrite your game.”

End-customers are not locked into a specific game engine in any way, whereas mobile ecosystems have lock-in through devices and already-bought apps. That's a major difference for a software maker.
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