Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#121

Post by yawn » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 7:30 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #21

FreakyT wrote: post #4

Really hoping regulators crack down hard on Apple's clearly anticompetitive practices. If Apple allowed sideloading the entire point would be, of course, moot, but Apple's continued refusal to allow this is really the biggest problem, IMO.

As a user I'm quite happy with Apple intermediating my relationship with companies that seek to do business with me over the phone, and I'd actually be happier if Apple took over more of my relationships. I don't want a situation where 10 apps means 10 different privacy agreements. I also don't want to deal with app companies directly for returns or their custom payment solutions — an "Amazon" is way better.

Adding sideloading support would not affect you then. This is about those users that want more control over their devices.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#122

Post by daveidol » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

ecf wrote: post #91

slongfield wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a developer doesn't like Unreal's terms, there are other game engines. If a developer doesn't like Apple's terms, there are no viable alternatives for iOS distribution.

But there are other Smartphone platforms with their own store, correct? I don’t know why people feel it’s their undeniable right to be able to provide an app to iOS users.

It's not an "undeniable right" but it's also not like there are a lot of other options. You can say "just move to another platform" or "then make your own platform" but you also have to be a realist.

This is why antitrust laws exist - sometimes the market realities make this nearly impossible.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#123

Post by ryneandal » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

molszanski wrote: post #112

xoxoy wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30% is extremely high by any reasonable standard for any marketplace

Doesn't like every online "platform" take 30% cut? Google play, playstation store, steam, xbox store, nintendo store?

Epic Games Store is 12%: https://www.polygon.com/2018/12/4/18125498/epic-games-store-...

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#124

Post by voidpointercast » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

ryneandal wrote: post #97

Given Epic's history, this is entirely them taking the lead and trying to fight for smaller game devs. Kudos to them.

That seems blindly naive but okay.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#125

Post by heavyset_go » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

CubsFan1060 wrote: post #88

shajznnckfke wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a huge fan of Apple Pay and do not begrudge the 0.15% cut they take on those transactions. The cut they take for App Store purchases is over 100x that amount, which is obscene.

But,it's more than that. Not only do I get some security for payment, but I get: * Some level of guarantee that every app on my phone has been vetted (it's not perfect of course, but is better than nothing). It's unlikely that anything to nefarious makes can make it onto my phone, and if it does, it'll be removed. * I get a better fit and finish. Apps on the iPhone very often have a better quality to them. * I get th…

And I'm sure that other companies could be more efficient with the 30% App Store cut, or less than 30%, but the power of markets and competition are stifled by Apple's restrictive limitations.

Bandcamp, for example, provides both digital and physical assets, and only takes a 10% - 15% cut. They provide a secure experience for their customers free of ads, malware, spyware and spam.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#126

Post by yladiz » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

slongfield wrote: post #83

ecf wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t Epic take a cut out of every single purchase made of a game built with Unreal Engine? Seems kinda hypocritical that they’re taking this stance when their licensing model is arguably just as burdensome on developers. In my opinion, Epic should not put their app on the App Store if they don’t like the terms, just as they would tell a developer to not use their engine if they don’t like the terms.

If a developer doesn't like Unreal's terms, there are other game engines. If a developer doesn't like Apple's terms, there are no viable alternatives for iOS distribution.

It's a false dichotomy; the correct comparison is:

If a developer doesn't like Apple's terms, there are other phone platforms.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#127

Post by aaomidi » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

csunbird wrote: post #104

aaomidi wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if in a year a product comes out that I really want to use, the product really wants to support apple, but apple says "no we're not going to allow you". I have to create more ewaste by going and buying an android phone instead? Is this what we're advocating for? More consumption of rare resources?

No, you know that the app might not be available for your new iPhone and accept the fact when you buy it or you just do not buy an iPhone and buy Android/LibreOS/etc instead.

Why do I know that? How do I know if something isn't going to be accessible in the future?

Either way, say I made a mistake and now I'm using Apple. Do you suggest everyone in that same condition go make more waste by buying new phones?

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#128

Post by naravara » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

untog wrote: post #13

epaga wrote: post #5

This is not surprising to me, and I have to say, I completely agree with it. Epic publicly and blatantly bypassed multiple App Store restrictions with their move today. Surely they were expecting this to happen, so what comes next? Perhaps Epic has been planning a major lawsuit and this will provide them with the reason to launch it? Edit: https://twitter.com/FortniteGame/status/1293984290326433792 They have an entir…

I'm very sure Epic saw this coming. I assume they, and many others, are spoiling for a fight with Apple over this and are willing to take this risk in bringing public opinion with them.

This seems ill-advised for Epic, in particular. The fight they're picking will logically end in a regulatory hammer coming down and that hammer is going to hit Epic a lot harder than Apple just because Epic is even more reliant on extracting revenue from being a platform owner than Apple is.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#129

Post by oh_sigh » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

iamspoilt wrote: post #100

Question: How is Apple's 30% cut different from the transaction fees that are charged by Visa / Mastercard and payment processors like Stripe? I can see the big percentage but is the argument in favour of removing the entirety of the cut or reducing it down?

I think you're right in that the argument is against the huge, rent-seeking percentage, and not necessarily the concept of taking a percentage. If Apple forced all payments to go through them and added only a few percent on top, I doubt this would be as big of an issue.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#130

Post by elicash » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 7:32 PM UTC

This is really bad for Apple users like me and ultimately for Apple.

People are talking anti-trust, but I don't think it'll take a legal case for them to eventually lose this broader fight. Apple has enough money they COULD do whatever they want for as long as they want, but if this grows to even more companies, Apple's negotiating position becomes weaker.