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Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

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Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#201

Post by [deleted] »

gamblor956 wrote: post #103
TuringNYC wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm conflicted about this because i believe drivers deserve benefits but also uber should not be forced to pay full benefits for someone who drives just a bit on a weekend night. Where is the line of hours driven until you get benefits? I dont know, but I think that is the wrong question. The right question is -- why is this forced onto Uber rather than being a question of national healthcare. If we offered national…

The right question is -- why is this forced onto Uber rather than being a question of national healthcare. Because one political party has spent the last 4 decades fighting to prevent "national healthcare," forcing states and businesses to deal with it. Hell, they've spent the last 10 years trying to demolish a law that the overwhelming majority of voters support, including those within their own party.

[deleted]

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#203

Post by manfredo »

jonahhorowitz wrote: post #174
manfredo wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't they fit squarely into the category of contractors? They set their own hours and use their own equipment. The fact that the platform sets dynamic prices doesn't change this. Contracts to do work in times with more demand command higher prices in plenty of other industries. Caterers probable charge more during the holidays, right?

The requirements for contractors are (known as the ABC test)[0][1]: 1) Part A of the test requires that the worker is free from the control and direction of the hiring entity in connection with the performance of the work, both under the contract for the performance of the work and in fact; and 2) Part B of the test requires that the worker performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s busines…

1) Uber drivers are totally at liberty to set their own hours, and drive in location of their choice ( destination are chosen by Uber, but a worker is at liberty to drive in San Jose one day and San Francisco the next).

2) The drivers are outside of Uber's business. Uber is a software and technology company, not a taxi service.

3) Drivers are independent workers, in business for themselves.

4) Same as above.

With these criteria it unambiguously seems to be the case that ride share drivers are independent contractors. I struggle to see how one could make the case that they are employees.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#204

Post by Aunche »

ghaff wrote: post #43

Maybe I'm cynical but "temporarily shut down" sounds like a formula to: - Inconvenience a certain class of urbanites who have grown accustomed to being driven around in the hopes that they - Complain loudly to their representatives and other governmental officials in the hope that - The state will reverse this judgement

To play devil's advocate, even if they wanted to follow the law in good faith, they'd need to completely restructure their business. Until they can do so, they'd need to be shut down.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#205

Post by chillacy »

r29vzg2 wrote: post #149
brooklyndude wrote: post #133

Just an update from an old guy. From my favorite capitalist, an oil futures trader on WS: Between 9:30-4:00 I’d kill my own mother to make a dime a trade. Kill my own fucking mother. Do we seriously think Uber would not slash wages to shit, deny healthcare, work drivers till they dropped, and then killed someone’s mother if they could make a dime and get away with it? People seriously believe they would not do that u…

That’s a very cynical view. What about You and I who also have a down payment and a mortgage? You can argue that Uber was exploiting workers, but at the same time, none of them were forced to work. All made a free choice. And now “The State” has essentially legislated them out of their jobs. The State has literally said, “you’re too stupid to realize you’re being taken advantage of, so you can’t work this job”. I’d s…

I definitely agree with you on this issue, but want to point out that "free choice" can lead to suboptimal outcomes. Here's an excerpt by Singer:

> Suppose I live in the suburbs and work in the city. I could drive my car to work, or take the bus. I prefer not to wait around for the bus, and so I take my car. Fifty thousand other people living in my suburb face the same choice and make the same decision. The road to town is choked with cars. It takes each of us an hour to travel ten miles. In this situation, according to the liberal conception of freedom, we have all chosen freely. Yet the outcome is something none of us want. If we all went by bus, the roads would be empty and we could cover the distance in twenty minutes. Even with the inconvenience of waiting at the bus stop, we would all prefer that. We are, of course, free to alter our choice of transportation, but what can we do? While so many cars slow the bus down, why should any individual choose differently? The liberal conception of freedom has led to a paradox: we have each chosen in our own interests, but the result is in no one’s interest. Individual rationality, collective irrationality…

Taken from https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/13/book-review-singer-on-...

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#206

Post by thewebcount »

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #152
gamblor956 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I sell something on Etsy they don't have to all of a sudden pay for my healthcare costs. Etsy is not even remotely the same thing as Uber. For starters, shops choose what they want to sell, and for how much, and customers choose which shops on Etsy they wish to buy from. Other than handling payment processing, Etsy operates just like a mall. In contrast, riders don't get to choose which driver they get; Uber choos…

> California, including especially the Bay Area, LA, and San Diego, has public transportation You really had me for a moment until I realized you're joking :) In all seriousness, public transportation in California is the real joke. > It is possible to visit every major city and national park in CA using just public transportation. Sure, and it's possible for me to canoe to Antarctica but it's not a reasonable way fo…

With LA you might have a point. We have it but it's young and still growing and not as convenient as it should be. But SF? Are you kidding me? I can take busses, trains, etc. to get anywhere in that city and out to the valley. It's awesome!

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#207

Post by chrisco255 »

gamblor956 wrote: post #103
TuringNYC wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm conflicted about this because i believe drivers deserve benefits but also uber should not be forced to pay full benefits for someone who drives just a bit on a weekend night. Where is the line of hours driven until you get benefits? I dont know, but I think that is the wrong question. The right question is -- why is this forced onto Uber rather than being a question of national healthcare. If we offered national…

The right question is -- why is this forced onto Uber rather than being a question of national healthcare. Because one political party has spent the last 4 decades fighting to prevent "national healthcare," forcing states and businesses to deal with it. Hell, they've spent the last 10 years trying to demolish a law that the overwhelming majority of voters support, including those within their own party.

ACA (in particular the forced care provision) was extremely unpopular and it led to the formation of the Tea Party, which swept the House in 2010.

There's many good reasons to avoid nationalized healthcare. Have you been to the post office or the DMV?

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#208

Post by jquery »

criddell wrote: post #121
ekianjo wrote: post #83

> "What worker doesn't want to have access to paid sick leave?" Becerra said. "What worker doesn't want to have unemployment insurance at a time of Covid-19 crisis? What worker doesn't want to know that they'll get paid for overtime if they work 60 hours in a week or 12 hours in a day?" Since when are we reasoning about workers starting from what they want? If we go by that reasoning, "What worker does not want to be…

Change want to deserve and I think you'll get the idea. A service that can only exist if workers are denied basics probably shouldn't exist.

Uber doesn’t “deny basics” any more than I deny basics when I hire a plumber and pay the plumber in cash instead of hiring them on as an employee.

EDIT: Uber isn’t the “plumbing company”. It’s a marketplace for transportation solutions, and accepts job offers and then sends the jobs out to contractors who have indicated they are interested in accepting such jobs. This isn’t just a “polite fiction”, this is fundamentally how Uber operates, and why they are shutting down in California. AB5 is a terrible law and I hope it is reversed or carved out to uselessness. I see it as a net negative for the economy, and especially for the workers who will now be receiving zero supplemental income during these tough times. Uber drivers are not employees of Uber.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#209

Post by [deleted] »

vkou wrote: post #185
macspoofing wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure there's part of that, and there's nothing wrong with that. This is a bad law. The other part are the logistics of creating a set of new policies, and systems to adhere to this law - which takes time.

It's not a bad law - if Uber can't operate in compliance with it, it has a bad business model.

[deleted]

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#210

Post by maerF0x0 »

yaur wrote: post #192
jacobn wrote: post #28

We’re legally unequipped to deal well with gig workers. They’re arguably neither contractors nor employees, and shoe horning them into either category will inevitably lead to some absurdities.

I think it's more like "gig workers" were created to try to do an end run around hard won protection for workers. The idea that someone driving (or waiting for pickups) 40+ hours a week is somehow different is different than somehow different than someone (e.g.) doing tech support for 40+ hours a week is absurd.

The number 40 (sometimes 30) has become this arbitrary standard with large binary differences on each side of the fence. This makes it very difficult for people to negotiate time off, less than full time schedules, partial retirement etc.

Laws written in the past often are deeply tied to the assumption of one american lifestyle and dream, which is no longer the reality, and thus is very inefficient for many many people. Laws written to instead capture the concepts and algorithmically scale them would be much more effective. Something like $EMPLOYER must pay N/40ths of the healthcare cost where N is the number of hours worked. People with 2 jobs could get full healthcare premiums covered.

People who want to scale back to 1/2 time would know what to expect and it wouldnt be a binary decision factor.

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