Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#171

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

jayd16 wrote: post #160

cft wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I applaud the CEO for this decision. It forces at least a glimpse of understanding on the local voters that one cannot combine ideological utopia and a functional economy.

Uber isn't special. If they can't exist without exploiting workers then they shouldn't exist. The void will get filled by something better.

Then shouldn't you also be applauding the CEO for his decision? I hate to present this kind of gotcha, but I'm honestly confused on how to reconcile "Uber shouldn't exist in California" and "Uber shouldn't announce it's shutting down in California".

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#172

Post by trixie_ » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #2

Seems like a fair outcome to me. If they can't operate within the law, they shouldn't operate.

Dangerously simplistic viewpoint assuming laws are good and the outcomes of those laws are fair. I'm sure if there was a law personally affecting you negatively you wouldn't feel the same way.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#173

Post by ashtonkem » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

Couldn't pick a less impactful time to shut down if they tried. I'm personally not using Uber right now because I have nowhere to go; I literally won't miss them.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#174

Post by jonahhorowitz » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #140

jacobn wrote: post #28

We’re legally unequipped to deal well with gig workers. They’re arguably neither contractors nor employees, and shoe horning them into either category will inevitably lead to some absurdities.

Why wouldn't they fit squarely into the category of contractors? They set their own hours and use their own equipment. The fact that the platform sets dynamic prices doesn't change this. Contracts to do work in times with more demand command higher prices in plenty of other industries. Caterers probable charge more during the holidays, right?

The requirements for contractors are (known as the ABC test)[0][1]:

1) Part A of the test requires that the worker is free from the control and direction of the hiring entity in connection with the performance of the work, both under the contract for the performance of the work and in fact; and

2) Part B of the test requires that the worker performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business; and

3) Part C of the test requires that the worker is customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, or business of the same nature as the work performed.

4) The contractor must actually be in business for themselves.

[0] - https://www.californiaemploymentlawreport.com/2019/03/unders...

[1] - https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#175

Post by ericmay » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 5:03 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #131

amscanne wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You compare uber to etsy, but uber sets a price and does not even list the name of the driver till you order to pay. Yes, but the driver is similarly offered the fare, and may choose to accept or not. This is actually one of the critical distinctions between employees and non-employees. If they were an actual employee, Uber would be able to just assign the fare to them. This is also unlike taxis, where, if your lig…

The important factor for employee vs contractor isn't whether the worker can accept/reject the job, since employees have that option under many union contracts, and in fact this is how many restaurants have operated for decades (where "job" = "shift"). What matters is whether the worker can independently decide what fare to charge (even if in practice the fare is limited by market forces to what a customer/client wou…

Aren't they deciding what fare to charge by accepting the job?

If I offer someone $10 to mow my lawn and that's the only price I'm willing to pay, are they now an employee because they can't decide what fare to charge? Do I now owe the kid down the street and all of her friends a 401k if they rotate through who mows my lawn for that price?

I guess I'm not following here.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#176

Post by maerF0x0 » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 5:04 PM UTC

I used to use a service called car2go in previous cities I lived in. It was extremely convenient and approximately as expensive as Uber. Car2go dealt with all of vehicle asset, maintenance, gas, insurance, parking.

IMO paying someone to drive you around is just inefficient when you can easily do it yourself (though lack the vehicle). This is the wall that uber is running up against and is now trying to skirt regulation in order to cut costs.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#177

Post by sneak » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 5:04 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #43

Maybe I'm cynical but "temporarily shut down" sounds like a formula to: - Inconvenience a certain class of urbanites who have grown accustomed to being driven around in the hopes that they - Complain loudly to their representatives and other governmental officials in the hope that - The state will reverse this judgement

Isn’t that democracy working as intended? If the law is there and they can’t operate within it, shutting down is the legal thing to do.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#178

Post by macspoofing » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 5:05 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #43

Maybe I'm cynical but "temporarily shut down" sounds like a formula to: - Inconvenience a certain class of urbanites who have grown accustomed to being driven around in the hopes that they - Complain loudly to their representatives and other governmental officials in the hope that - The state will reverse this judgement

I'm sure there's part of that, and there's nothing wrong with that. This is a bad law. The other part are the logistics of creating a set of new policies, and systems to adhere to this law - which takes time.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#179

Post by temp667 » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 5:05 PM UTC

mayneack wrote: post #78

temp667 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The corruption here is incredible - the taxi cab industry had insurance of like $20K per accident (talk to the women who got brain damage), would never pickup in bad areas AND paid their workers as.... independent contractors!! You think your taxi driver is a W2 employee - please think again. The number of carve outs in this new "principled" rule is incredible, and more industries keep asking for them (freelance writ…

What are the taxis doing with AB 5 then?

This is a law with numerous carvouts (ie, pretty garbage in first place) and HIGHLY selective enforcement.

The discussion is no longer logical. You can't say here is the law - here are facts - here is result. Now it's here is law (with lots of totally random elements and exceptions that are confusing for everyone involved if you actually try and comply with it - I've had folks says they promise they are independent businesses, and they look and act like it, but the law says things like if they don't have all the business licenses setup they are not, and some cities like SF require that if you do work for a company that has business in SF that work can be considered happening in SF and so you need to get licensed there etc etc).

I used to be a stickler for trying to get folks to comply with AB5 - but I'd guess we are at 70% noncomplaince still against letter of law - and it's not worth fighting employers AND contractors to get everyone to switch when they don't want to.

One workaround I've been recently is to hire out of state or look at offshoring - freelance writers are a good example where I don't think there is a way to really hire them legally in CA, but you can still hire them outside of state as I understand it. The mechanics of turning all authors into W2 employees is such a big leap, but most authors don't have all the right business licenses setup in every city they might have work appear.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#180

Post by tanilama » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #170

tanilama wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine shutting down food delivery in a pandemic is going to be a popular decision. I imagine not.

Uber Eats has a number of competitors for food delivery services in CA. And since UberEats's drivers already tend to work for their competitors as well, the effect of Uber pulling out of the market probably wouldn't even be noticeable.

It is not like the competitors is going to have a good time dealing with this any easier.

And they have even lesser cash to burn.

The delivery price is already a significant chunk of the order, and if the price goes up significantly, I guess the option for people is to stop ordering food and cook at home.

Which is good and probably saving me a lot of money anyway once I get used to it, but I don't think drivers will be the only one that are unhappy with this.