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Amazon’s business model meets Sweden’s labor unions

politico.eu

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Re: Amazon’s business model meets Sweden’s labor unions

#51

Post by UK-Al05 »

Jolter wrote: post #31
bkor wrote: post #7

What a weird article. Loads of international companies operate in countries with wildly different laws, standards of living, disposable income, etc. Why compare Sweden with a Polish warehouse workers and not investigate how e.g. Amazon.fr operates? That country at least goes on strike significantly more often (probably more so than the rest of the EU combined). Meaning, one year I noticed them on strike every other w…

I don't know if you've quite understood how Swedish labor law differs from the French. Sweden is a little unique in that we have fewer strikes than most European countries. The reason is the "fredsplikt": as long as there is a collective bargaining agreement in place, if a worker goes on strike they can be legally laid off for shirking work. So, strikes will only happen at most every two-three years when the current…

Amazon doesn't compete on lower salaries, it competes on automation.

Amazon actually lobbies for higher salaries, it hurts the competitors who don't use as much automation and are not great at operational efficiency.

It's a myth the amazon pay low salaries. They they just optimise the heck out of everything.

It's pretty smart in many ways, as its great PR and destroys your competitors if its national law.

Re: Amazon’s business model meets Sweden’s labor unions

#52

Post by me_me_me »

toyg wrote: post #35
redgc wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always attempt to shop from Amazon Germany because (a) larger variety of items, and (b) I feel I can trust the reviews there. Have you found Swedish e-commerce sites to have enough reliable reviews to buy anything with confidence, or do you tend to buy products that you can find reviews of elsewhere? I joke to my wife, "If 500 Germans say it's good, I'm sold"

> I feel I can trust the reviews [on Amazon Germany] I... wouldn't do that.

Read 3/4 star reviews, they are usually good indicator of quality.

There are few type of those, and you are looking for someone who knows what they are talking about and talk about shortcomings of a given product. They are usually pro's that have some experience with given category of a product. So they know what they want.

If you find one like that its ease to judge what features you need vs features pros need.

Usually, 1 stars are by entitled complainers (unless product is cheap knockoff) and 5 stars are by people that don't know what they are talking about or brought reviews.

Re: Amazon’s business model meets Sweden’s labor unions

#53

Post by me_me_me »

eckesicle wrote: post #29

I think the union rep from Handels is correct. They'll get Amazon to cave. Amazon is the quintessential hill to die on for the unions and the labour laws are incredibly strong in Sweden. Here's how I think it might play out if Amazon refuses to sign: - Handels requests collective bargaining - Amazon declines but are sued in court and loses (you are required to bargain) - Negotiations fail and Amazon refuses to sign -…

This sounds like a political system for people that actually works for people not against them.

Re: Amazon’s business model meets Sweden’s labor unions

#54

Post by spindle »

Cederfjard wrote: post #37
eckesicle wrote: post #29

I think the union rep from Handels is correct. They'll get Amazon to cave. Amazon is the quintessential hill to die on for the unions and the labour laws are incredibly strong in Sweden. Here's how I think it might play out if Amazon refuses to sign: - Handels requests collective bargaining - Amazon declines but are sued in court and loses (you are required to bargain) - Negotiations fail and Amazon refuses to sign -…

For a case study, look up Toys R Us' entry into Sweden.

Could you suggest something specific to read please? Thank you.

Re: Amazon’s business model meets Sweden’s labor unions

#55

Post by bildung »

UK-Al05 wrote: post #51
Jolter wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you've quite understood how Swedish labor law differs from the French. Sweden is a little unique in that we have fewer strikes than most European countries. The reason is the "fredsplikt": as long as there is a collective bargaining agreement in place, if a worker goes on strike they can be legally laid off for shirking work. So, strikes will only happen at most every two-three years when the current…

Amazon doesn't compete on lower salaries, it competes on automation. Amazon actually lobbies for higher salaries, it hurts the competitors who don't use as much automation and are not great at operational efficiency. It's a myth the amazon pay low salaries. They they just optimise the heck out of everything. It's pretty smart in many ways, as its great PR and destroys your competitors if its national law.

At least in Germany they are definitely paying less than other logistics companies. Do you have an example country where amazon pays more than the competitors?

Re: Amazon’s business model meets Sweden’s labor unions

#56

Post by UK-Al05 »

bildung wrote: post #55
UK-Al05 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon doesn't compete on lower salaries, it competes on automation. Amazon actually lobbies for higher salaries, it hurts the competitors who don't use as much automation and are not great at operational efficiency. It's a myth the amazon pay low salaries. They they just optimise the heck out of everything. It's pretty smart in many ways, as its great PR and destroys your competitors if its national law.

At least in Germany they are definitely paying less than other logistics companies. Do you have an example country where amazon pays more than the competitors?

https://www.geekwire.com/2018/amazon-raises-minimum-wage-15-...

A lot of people think they forced amazon take this action, but strategically its great for amazon if they can raise the minimum wage. It will force other people out of business before causes them issues. It's calculated. They deliver more items per unit of labour then anyone else.

Collective bargain agreements are more difficult because its not national law. You can pay more but your competitors won't. But unions being unions will always ask for more if they think they can, even if they already pay well compared to other companies.

Do you have information on how well they are paid in Germany? I can't find any information on it other than amazon stating they pay well.

Companies are a lot smarter than people given them credit for. They use regulation to their own advantage, they're not against it. They will lobby for nice sounding regulation for PR reasons if they've calculated it harm others more then themselves. They just position themselves to take advantage of the regulation.

Most of the time companies with large amounts of capital are best place to do this. It's the small companies that get screwed.

Re: Amazon’s business model meets Sweden’s labor unions

#57

Post by me_me_me »

negamax wrote: post #32
MattGaiser wrote: post #4

Amazon is the kind of company to instead build high speed hovercraft and base them in Poland or park a large warehouse offshore.

They also need to account for safety of goods and stability of their assets and operations. So they will need stable political climate to operate.

Then Poland is a great choice, nothing has change politically since 70s.

We have government that is built on anti-communist PR, whilst using Soviet guidebook on how to run a country. Including censorship, misinformation, erosion of democratic institution and processes.

Heck they even have an ex-communist prosecutor in government!

So you can bet Poland is political concrete block.

(this is attempt at slightly humorous post through gritted teeth)

Re: Amazon’s business model meets Sweden’s labor unions

#58

Post by ornornor »

redgc wrote: post #19
navidfarhadi wrote: post #9

I'm very interested to see how Amazon's entry into the Swedish market plays out. I used to shop a lot on Amazon back when I lived in the SF Bay Area and thought I would miss it when I moved to Stockholm but honestly that has not been the case. I get 1-2 day shipping from other online retailers in Sweden anyway (like CDON and Webhallen) and there is quite fierce competition between a few of the bigger names in the gam…

I always attempt to shop from Amazon Germany because (a) larger variety of items, and (b) I feel I can trust the reviews there. Have you found Swedish e-commerce sites to have enough reliable reviews to buy anything with confidence, or do you tend to buy products that you can find reviews of elsewhere? I joke to my wife, "If 500 Germans say it's good, I'm sold"

Aren’t amazon reviews one of the most gamed review system ever?

Also, stock co-mingling. That alone makes me buy as little from amazon and as much from elsewhere as I can.

Re: Amazon’s business model meets Sweden’s labor unions

#59

Post by bildung »

spindle wrote: post #54
Cederfjard wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a case study, look up Toys R Us' entry into Sweden.

Could you suggest something specific to read please? Thank you.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/03/18/sweden-retail-union...

TL;DR: refusal to sign a collective agreement escalated into an all-out boycott of the company. In the end, the workers won.

"Toys “R” Us was both an exception to the rule —even McDonald's was forced to sign a collective agreement — and a warning for other corporations that they must adapt to the Swedish model or fail"

Re: Amazon’s business model meets Sweden’s labor unions

#60

Post by josefx »

UK-Al05 wrote: post #50
josefx wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so they were shutdown They weren't shut down, that was Amazons decision. The court only told them to reduce operations to specific categories of its store site - the idea was to somehow reduce operations to a safe amount as Amazon had repeatedly failed to so by itself. Amazon then made up the nebulous "essential products" category and made sure to complain loudly about the supposed nonsense the court required while…

French goverment was trying to apply rules which had a lot of grey area. Amazon decided it was too risky so shut down.

The court provided a list of Amazon(TM) categories from the Amazon (TM) website and told Amazon to restrict its operations to those. You wont find any of the "essential products" nonsense outside of Amazons own court documents and press releases.
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