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Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

blog.mozilla.org

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Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#421
post #390

I find this sad, Mozilla is really an advocate for the open web and web standards. Since web browsers are free, they can't make much. They might be able to sell something like Thunderbird; if they improve it and make it more into a service, like Hey! for example. They could also try the sponsorship model that a lot of open source projects are doing. They already have sponsors, but maybe sponsors for their open source…

Mozilla made over $500M revenue in 2017 and $451M in 2018. Apparently the decline has continued, but it should still be enough to develop a browser. I would guess that Firefox is profitable but all of Mozilla's other things are dragging them down.

>but it should still be enough to develop a browser

Yes, but not enough to pay the management staff (whatever they do)

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#423
post #392

I wonder if rustc developpers have been fired

When I worked there, there were basically 4 people working on Rust. And these people were making sure Rust would not need Mozilla to survive. Very smart people. Rust will be fine.

I'm pretty sure at least one of those people were laid off previously in the past year.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#424
post #330

They should license their UI framework.

Isn’t it all js/html? Who would pay for it when electron is free.

It used to be centered around XUL, and there was even a sort of proto-electron in the form of xulrunner and the related Prism project, but they were all dropped years ago and XUL itself has been deprecated and is being steadily replaced.

There might've been a window somewhere in there where turning XUL/Gecko into a Qt style application toolkit could've been an option, but I think we're well past that point now.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#425

The cost of building and maintaining a competitive browser is huge and it's hard for Mozilla/Firefox to compete with Google/Chrome. Firefox saw its monthly active users go down by ~14% in the last 8 months [1]. I think Mozilla should consider stopping Firefox development and fork Chromium to focus on accessibility and privacy (both in and out of the browser). It's far from ideal--there'll only be one popular browser…

That's 20 months, not 8.

Ah you're right, I skipped a year. Thank you for pointing that out

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But they did that, and now Firefox market share is almost negligible because it wasn't the default browser on mobile OS's. Firefox has never been a default browser on any OS, mobile or otherwise, and I don't see how that could ever change short of Firefox developing their own OS. Which is in fact something they tried a while back for mobile, and it didn't go so well.

> Which is in fact something they tried a while back for mobile, and it didn't go so well. A fork of it (KaiOS) is currently more popular than iOS in India. I'd argue that their PWA-focused OS was just a few years ahead of its time.

I use KaiOS on my phone. It's pretty good. A nice cross between 'dumb' and 'smart'. I like it a lot. No forced upload of my contact lists and no forced membership of some eco system.

The only gripe I have is that pre-installed software can not be easily uninstalled but I understand they need to eat there too so I'll give them a pass. Rearranging the icons took care of that particular irritation.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't hold Mozilla to higher standards. I regard Mozilla as being deeply sick, even by the standards of a non-profit. The Mozilla Corporation has three plagues. First, the plague of Debian and the logjam breakers. Mozilla, like Debian, has many technical users with loud opinions and struggles to reach consensus. Debian suffers from this problem because it comes to consensus oh so very slowly - multiple competing pa…

I don't want to invalidate what you've said, so please don't interpret my comment that way. I would encourage you to think a bit more about a few things: > For example, Google executives don't release statements after employees die trashing the employee because of an underlying difference in personality and/or political views. While I agree that it was probably a mistake for Mitchell to have made that post, I think t…

Please don't worry about offending me / invalidating what I say - it's an internet forum, I don't take it that seriously. Please take my response in the same frame of mind.

Your defenses... aren't.

It's not airing the letter to the general public that was problematic. It's thinking that those are appropriate things to say out loud that's a problem. One of my coworkers passed from cancer a few years back. Frankly, a lot of people thought he was a real jerk before he passed. Nobody said bad things about him to people who knew him after he passed. Not internally, not publicly, not part of the carpool, not anonymously on blind, not even as a little joke after having a few drinks at the bar. Speaking ill of the dead is nasty. And it's mean. People who liked the deceased will overhear you and they'll go home later and cry and think about what people would say about them if they died and then cry more. Mitchell (? I don't remember who tbh) kicked a puppy and put it on YouTube and you're here with "Yes, Mozilla has a long history of putting the things it does on YouTube." It's not the publicity that's the problem - it's kicking the puppy in the first place!

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take from the CNET article. It wasn't really about gay marriage, it's because the board was indecisive and make a decision and then doubted themselves? So, it was just incompetent management? If you aren't sure about promoting somebody, don't promote them. Promoting somebody and then having them resign because you weren't sure is terrible. Mature corporations with competent leadership recognize that personnel decisions matter - that peoples' feeling are impacted when titles are granted and taken away - and make these decisions deliberately and carefully.

The Eich affair was the cause, but it's not the underlying problem. Mozilla lacks competent technical leadership. Managers with ten years experience in the product area who can make broad-lens decisions. You can see this everywhere. I participate in the web ecosystem in my day job. I'm always struck by the lack of professionalism in the emails from Mozilla employees on github issues. Most Mozilla employees mail like employees 1-2 years out of college. At my company, that fades - managers speak to employees who get too heated in emails and give them pointers with regard to staying on topic and staying technical. But you can also see them in product - Apple's Intelligent Tracking Prevention (ITP) feature - one of the most important strides for privacy on the web in decades - was produced by somebody with a 10 year lens - somebody who saw the security blog post in 2012 about being able to track Twitter users based on their image caches and who had dealt with a decade of the gigantic mess of incompatibility that is cookies for just as long. For their tracking prevention solution, Mozilla copied what some existing plugins did. And it all goes back to Eich. Because managers with 10 years of experience are closer to 40 than 20. They're substantially more likely to have seen political fashions swing - they've seen somebody (perhaps the Dixie Chicks) have their career ruined for reasons that seem incomprehensible a decade later. And they've accumulated at least one "unpopular" political view. And they've come to realize that some organizations are simply too interested in political fashion to be an appropriate home for them.

The point is - what happened to Brendan Eich doesn't prevent me from using Firefox. I don't use Firefox because it sucks. And it sucks because Mozilla can't hire good people with decades of experience. And Mozilla can't hire good people with decades of experience because of what happened to Brendan Eich (and the attitudes that led to it).

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#429
post #417

Sounds like Servo, the next-generation browser engine that brought the world Rust, is one of the teams being destaffed: https://twitter.com/SimonSapin/status/1293231187167784960

Servo showed there was plenty of room for browser perf beyond optimizing JS engines Mozilla getting rid of their main product's most relevant R&D makes me fear they'll eventually announce Firefox replacing its internals with chromium

Can’t say I’m surprised there wasn’t much movement on that project in a coordinated fashion it had all the makings of a project without adequate staffing to complete its vision.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#430
post #249

Mozilla management has me puzzled. They have a position that is incredibly strong, lots of dedicated users that would rather quit the web than switch to Chrome or Edge. "But we know we also need to go beyond the browser to give people new products and technologies that both excite them and represent their interests" Is exactly what they should stay away from. Work on the bloody browser, forget about the rest. There a…

> Is exactly what they should stay away from. Work on the bloody browser, forget about the rest. This is short term thinking. A slightly better Firefox tomorrow is nice I guess, buy I care way more about being able to use Firefox in 2030, or 2040. Making a browser is not looking like a business model that is going to make you last forever - not when Google is your competition. Their business model already depends on…

There is a large gap between "focus on the browser" and "make Firefox slightly better."

People forget that Firefox gave the world tabbed browsing. Sure, it was around before, but Firefox was the drive and impetus that moved it from a niche idea to the default option across every browser. That was over a decade ago.

Firefox has the opportunity to execute a vision of modern web-browsing again. And, frankly, we really need it. Tabs use to be the solution; now I measure problem difficulty in terms of tabs I have open ("That was a 10-tab problem"), and find myself closing 15-20 at a time.

Arguably, Pocket is trying to do that, but as a secondary service. It needs to be integrated, and seamless. I want stacks of tabs, tagged tab groups, an Inbox-like interface for my web history, including reminders (rip Inbox Reminders), predictive new-tab screens, cross-device tab sharing. I want to collect and link sites I've seen, and quickly be able to find them again. I want internet history that's a set, not a random list.

Firefox could bring us the next wave of web browsing again. Instead, they're building an app that claims to make web browsing better---by going to a second location.

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