Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products • Hacker News Board

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#281

Post by takluyver » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 4:36 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #211

staktrace wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla's mission is to make the internet a better place for everybody. Having an open web browser is a part of that, but nowhere near sufficient to accomplish the goal. The "vanity ambitions" you are talking about are the things that actually make a long-term difference in people's lives. Having a great competitive browser with a silo'd, broken up Internet is not a desirable end-state.

Losing that great competitive browser because of pursuing even higher goals and ending up with an even more silo'd, broken up internet is an even less desirable end state and one that is much more likely to materialize by acting like this.

At the moment, it looks a lot like they're losing a competitive browser despite putting a lot of effort into the technology - either because Google competes unfairly, or because it just has more resources to compete with fairly. So it seems reasonable to look for other approaches to support the open internet.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#282

Post by jacquesm » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 4:39 PM UTC

staktrace wrote: post #243

jacquesm wrote: post #95

Mozilla management has me puzzled. They have a position that is incredibly strong, lots of dedicated users that would rather quit the web than switch to Chrome or Edge. "But we know we also need to go beyond the browser to give people new products and technologies that both excite them and represent their interests" Is exactly what they should stay away from. Work on the bloody browser, forget about the rest. There a…

> Get the most secure and most user friendly, privacy first, standards compatible and feature rich browser out there and you'll survive for another decade at least. Get distracted by new and shiny stuff and I'd be surprised if it lasts another five years. What's the point of survival in the kind of world this would result in? To paraphrase, this kind of life is not a life worth living. The internet activism part is c…

So you feel that it is better to do many things and fail at all of them than it would be to do one thing and succeed at that because that one thing has no meaning in the world that would result?

All those other things that Mozilla has done to date have not moved the needle for me even a little bit. But the browser is something that touches me every day, for multiple hours of the day.

Maybe this is just my personal perspective but all this activism has not brought Mozilla much other than a bunch of controversy and in the end a browser that is not quite top notch, when it very well could have been.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#283

Post by bhauer » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 4:40 PM UTC

The new vision sounds like the old, current vision for the most part. I might be missing subtle changes in items 1 through 4. But item 5 is interesting:

> New focus on economics. Recognizing that the old model where everything was free has consequences, means we must explore a range of different business opportunities and alternate value exchanges

I think combining this with the momentum behind things like the Federal Reserve's new inter-bank payments system (linked on HN yesterday) could finally make micropayments or something analogous mainstream. I would really enjoy shifting some of the advertising-funded model back to direct revenue from customers. I would like to be considered a "customer" again in more walks of life, generally. Not just a "subject." I think the customer-vendor dynamic is much more healthy when I am indeed the customer.

If there's anything hopeful to take from this announcement, I think this is it.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#284

Post by connorgutman » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

Dear Mozilla, I would gladly sign-up for monthly patronage payments that go towards the development of Firefox features that the community chooses. Firstly, "installable" PWA support on Linux and Android. No one cares about your VPN or Pocket.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#285

Post by lildata » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

I've used & loved Mozilla forever but at some point I am starting to wonder: when you fire 1/3 of your workforce & have obvious mismanagement problems, how can you still guarantee the security of such a complex piece of software?

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#286

Post by jacquesm » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

calcifer wrote: post #236

jacquesm wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's turn that around: How much would it cost to run a lean-and-mean Mozilla that just focuses on FireFox? How much does it cost to run an unfocused Mozilla that tries very hard to compete with all those huge platforms out there? It's the latter company that I would not be willing to pay for, the former would have my cash, and more than they would likely expect from one single user. That's because I think that cedin…

OK, let's play this game: You are now fully in control of Mozilla - projects, finances, it's all on you. How would you turn Firefox into a browser with significant market share in an increasingly mobile world where two competitors control default applications and most users newer change any defaults?

I would put the user first, make privacy the #1 priority, make it plain to the EU that FireFox is the only browser that can make that guarantee and long term stand by it and apply for subsidy as well as promotion by the EU and/or anti-trust action against Google, Microsoft and Apple for not giving the users of their devices the option to install/run FireFox right out of the gate.

Ad blocking and tracker blocking would be a central item built into the browser from the get-go. I'd get rid of any and all telemetry unless explicitly opted-in to by the user.

I'd make sure that updates are going to be limited to security issues only and that any other feature changes or additions would always be optional rather than forced.

I'd ax each and every product that is not in line with that mission. Rust would be welcome to stay since it is now part of the future of the browser, but I'd spin it out as a separate entity with its own income stream based on a trademark of the name and set up a foundation around that.

The Rustaceans would be encouraged to create their own governance structure and Mozilla would be just another user of that product.

Oh, and I'd rename the company to FireFox Brower Inc.

As for mobile, I'm sure that there is room for firefox on mobile but first you'd have to convince Apple and Google that they are on the wrong path, a distraction that likely would not lead to a win in appreciable time.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#287

Post by hu3 » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

dblohm7 wrote: post #278

shock wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, as a non-profit, we should be held to higher standards, but not impossible standards. > OTOH, sometimes it just seems unreasonable and absurd. Stuff like, to paraphrase, "Look at the corporate doublespeak in that press release. Fuck Mozilla, I'm switching to Chrome." If you think that Mozilla not using "corporate doublespeak" is an impossible standard, I am left speechless.

> If you think that Mozilla not using "corporate doublespeak" is an impossible standard, I am left speechless. If you think that is a reason to abandon Mozilla, you've just proved my point.

Where did your parent said anything about abandoning?

Are people no longer allowed to criticise?

> If you think that is a reason to abandon Mozilla, you've just proved my point.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#288

Post by seabrookmx » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

jrvidal wrote: post #264

macspoofing wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's only a matter of time before Microsoft does a hard fork of Chromium.

Can you elaborate on what makes you think that? (I'd love it to happen, btw)

Same reason Google forked webkit to make blink. Over time the involved parties' priorities diverge and when that gap is wide enough, it makes sense to fork.

Also note it's not just Edge we're talking about. Microsoft is one of the main Electron stewards, and products like VSCode are built on that platform.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#289

Post by kps » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

rebelwebmaster wrote: post #171

macspoofing wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their priorities are out of wack. Firefox is their golden goose. It's the thing that gives them clout and revenue. Their job is to increase adoption because increased adoption means more clout and more revenue. You do that by constantly reinvesting in the platform and making it your core singular focus, especially performance and tooling (because developers are a big driver for browser adoption). Where is the Firefox…

Firefox Quantum was a pretty significant investment in Firefox. It made literally zero impact on their market share decline.

It broke things I cared about, so I use it less.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#290

Post by Santosh83 » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

dblohm7 wrote: post #258

[I am a Mozilla employee, and yes, I do recognize how my position influences my perspective.] One thing that always frustrates me a bit whenever Mozilla comes up on HN or elsewhere is that we are always held to impossibly high standards. Yes, as a non-profit, we should be held to higher standards, but not impossible standards. OTOH, sometimes it just seems unreasonable and absurd. Stuff like, to paraphrase, "Look at…

I may be rapidly downvoted but what strikes me as an outsider (reading most of the comments in this thread) is the collective psyche in the US is viscerally against any entity rising to the top that does not have profit as its sole goal. What they want is for Mozilla to solely focus on Firefox, on the technicalities, and shut up about everything else. And yet no one will actually pay for it as a product.

The tragedy of Mozilla is a very human one, with special embellishments added by the prevailing culture in the US, its home...