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TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

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Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#281

Post by macintux »

panpanna wrote: post #145
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wouldn't it still be fine if they are storing data there but not giving it to china gov? That situation does not exist. Chinese law basically means that any data held in China can be accessed by the government at any time.

Yeah, buy according to US law American companies must comply with government requests even if the data is stored abroad. So basically, why should anyone trust a US company if US thinks tiktok giving data to their government is a problem?

American companies have a legal system to protect them against unlawful requests. That rule of law is under attack, but exists, which does not seem to be the case for China.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#282

Post by save_ferris »

_8j50 wrote: post #274
bhupy wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US President is granted wide-ranging authority to regulate international commerce The executive order doesn't outright ban the use of TikTok (the app), it just places a ban on "any transactions subject to the jurisdiction of the United States with ByteDance", which in essence makes it impossible for people to find the app on an App store. It's almost identical to the Huawei/ZTE executive orders. It's a bit like a…

Non-commercial transactions of information can't be regulated. US advertisers can be banned from doing business with tiktok but it is a free app. If someone in China called you and read out loud every byte in the tiktok app and you wrote it down in notepad and saved it,is that speech or commerce? It is speech in my opinion. They can regulate commerce but for software and crypto they can't regulate the transfer of inf…

> Non-commercial transactions of information can't be regulated

Sure they can. Look at HIPAA, COPPA, government classification, etc. I could call a family member up at an intelligence agency and ask what kinds of stuff they're investigating, but they'd surely be committing a crime by sharing that information with me, regardless of whether or not money changed hands.

The other counterargument to this is that ByteDance only has commercial intentions with the data it gathers on users. It's not a non-profit trying to feed or clothe the needy, it exists purely as a commercial enterprise, meaning that any and all information they gather will either directly or indirectly used for commerce.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#283

Post by giancarlostoro »

logicchains wrote: post #103
kittiepryde wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'If americans want to be spied on by China in exchange for being able to use tiktok it's their right' I think you're argument breaks down here. I don't think that handimf over information to a foreign government is a right. I was unable to Google for a definitive answer, but maybe a more knowledgeable person could chime in. The US already has export restrictions on knowledge ( for example encryption ) to foreign gove…

>The US already has export restrictions on knowledge ( for example encryption ) to foreign governments. And normally people on this site deride such things as ridiculous (and actively worked around bans on exporting encryption), but when they find out Big Bad China might see their dance videos and lip synching suddenly they're happy to crush the free exchange of information.

> but when they find out Big Bad China might see their dance videos and lip synching suddenly they're happy to crush the free exchange of information.

This isn't what they even care about. It's all the telemetry and spying the app does, like copying your clipboard consistently (seriously how this is allowed anymore by iOS or Android is beyond me). What if you selected some proprietary information and later your kid opens up TikTok cause they love using your phone, and voila some proprietary information is copied on there, going to who knows where. Something like TikTok makes corporate espionage quite possible given its popularity. I can't imagine what other things the app is doing.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#284

Post by macintux »

La1n wrote: post #231
sbmthakur wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The party has supremacy over legal system interpretation as part of the '3 Supremes' order of precedence, with workers also coming ahead of the law. Very few people are aware about this. The party is supreme and institutions like PLA are answerable to the party, not to the people.

US institutions also answer to the US government...

Judges don’t answer to the government. They can be impeached, but that effectively never happens.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#285

Post by MagnumOpus »

pulse7 wrote: post #249
catsarebetter wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah interesting, I think I remember Congress asking the tech CEOs if China stole data from the us shortly before the tik tok announcement, I wonder if there's a connection there. But we use a ton of Chinese tech software and hardware outside of Tiktok, are they gonna ban them all?

A lost of Chinese hardware today doesn't send data back to China. An exception to that are mobile phones for some of which it has been proven to send data to China.

> An exception to that are mobile phones

And tablets. And routers. And smart TVs. Which basically encompasses pretty much all of the network-connected appliances in the average home.

(And even if a "a lost" of the rest of IoT devices don't, would you want to bet your data security on it?)

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#286

Post by true_religion »

anthk wrote: post #267
swebs wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the US's plan to maintain global dominance I really don't know what you're trying to say. If the USA achieved global dominance, there would be no China. There would only be the USA. Globally. Obviously, that's not the case.

>. If the USA achieved global dominance, there would be no China. And that day they would be no US West and East coast... populated. You know what I mean. Also, China owns the US economy by buying its debt. Try to crash down China, and look how the Dow Jones gets more sunk than the Marianas.

Debt is serviced under a contract. The worst a lender can do is not give any future debt.

Now of course in the case of nation states, agreements are changeable by military and economic force, but in effect you would have to do more than simply hold debt to affect another counties economy.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#287

Post by deepGem »

cwhiz wrote: post #240
gampleman wrote: post #121

So if the problem is that TikTok is gathering too much invasive data on US citizens (and supposedly siphoning it to China), and their defence is basically "So what, it's legal and everyone else is doing it too!", then isn't the obvious solution making actual digital privacy legislation that would make such data vacuuming illegal? That would solve the problem and make the American market a fair playing field rather th…

You can’t have a fair playing field with China unless they also have a fair playing field with the US. That has not ever been the case. China wants to have cake and eat cake.

Am quite surprised and quite honestly shocked that it took this long for US or any country to recognize this fact.

It's not just a fair playing field war between US and China, but between China and rest of the world. Even India, whose companies are not allowed to operate in China under fair play rules banned TikTok only after the Chinese incursion across the LOC.

I really don't know what to make of this.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#288

Post by vorpalhex »

rjtavares wrote: post #148
sbmthakur wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One difference between TikTok and other companies is that they are backed by an entity which has plans for global dominance and are not exactly aligned with American interests.

Facebook is a company that has plans for (and has achieved) global dominance and is not aligned with European interests. Boeing is a company backed by an entity which has plans for (and has achieved) global dominance and is increasingly not aligned with European interests. I know there's a huge difference between the US Government and the Chinese Government, but that difference is decreasing. And Facebook, well I sim…

But Facebook isn't backed by the US government given that we keep pulling them in front of congress and now the executive is making an attack on Section 230. That's not to say that FB isn't globally dominant - just that it isn't propped up by any country, and it'd certainly be fair to punish them for breaking or flouting rules.

Boeing as a company producing a massive amount of planes for the EU is absolutely aligned with European interests. Their current scandal is also a scandal in the US and they've also been (and continue to be) punished and investigated for it.

You can't just say "but Facebook!" in response to TikTok, a company siphoning data into a blackhole in China at the behest of the CCP and engaging in censoring as befits the CCP. The current status quo hurts everyone whether in the US or the EU.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#289

Post by _-david-_ »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #156
khuey wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no general First Amendment right to free speech for foreign nationals not physically present in the US.

The First Amendment prohibits laws abridging free speech. There is no limit placed on who is entitled to that right.

There was generally always considered to be 5 things that were not protected under the First Amendment. I doubt think any of the founders would disagree with the notion that the following where not protected under the First Amendment.

1. Libel

2. Slander

3. Treason

4. Certain threats / incitement to violence (like hiring a hit man)

5. Obscenity

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#290

Post by CerealFounder »

curiousllama wrote: post #264
gampleman wrote: post #121

So if the problem is that TikTok is gathering too much invasive data on US citizens (and supposedly siphoning it to China), and their defence is basically "So what, it's legal and everyone else is doing it too!", then isn't the obvious solution making actual digital privacy legislation that would make such data vacuuming illegal? That would solve the problem and make the American market a fair playing field rather th…

The problem isn't digital privacy; it's a fair bit more complex than that. Tech lenses aren't a great way to view geopolitics. The US' international economic dominance is predicated on a (1) pronounced lead in certain industries and (2) a simply massive economy, which combine to (3) let the US set the rules of international "fair play." The US is where you find the thing you want to buy, and the people you want to se…

You;'re right, but I think you're seeing China finally being taken seriously for the future and with that comes and expectation of reciprocity of commerce. If you want to fight to be the most important economy/culture you no longer can ask up to bring a knife to a gun fight.
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