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Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

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Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#711

Post by anticensor »

Cookingboy wrote: post #6
criddell wrote: post #2

> Uber and Lyft say drivers prefer the flexibility of working as freelancers What would prevent Uber and Lyft from continuing to let employee drivers set their own hours?

Nothing, but since now they have the added cost of health insurance, minimal wage, etc, it would make more sense for them to arrange pre-set shifts for the drivers to optimize for supply/demand based on time of the day. Some drivers would like that arrangement, especially if that's their full time job. But some drivers who do this for supplemental income may not be able to meet the demand of the new fixed schedule se…

> arrange pre-set shifts for the drivers to optimize for supply/demand based on time of the day.

Do you mean something like peak hours split shift schedules that bus/train/ferry drivers have?

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#712

Post by mumblemumble »

dustinmoris wrote: post #577

Lots of HN comments are here like "I know people who prefer to be contractors", "My sister's neighbours little brother actually doesn't want to be treated with respect by Uber", blah This is utter nonsense. Being a contractor means being self employed. You don't get paid leave or sick pay. It's a risk taking and doesn't make any sense in the gig economy where the wages are close to minimum rates. If you are truly sel…

My guess is that the full story is this:

Most Uber/Lyft drivers say they don't want to be considered employees because, for most of them, this isn't actually their job. It's just a side gig. I can't really speak to larger urban areas because I tend to prefer public transit when it's a viable option, but, in the smaller cities where I take most my rideshare rides, a pretty large percentage of the drivers I chat with end up mentioning their day job somewhere in the course of the conversation. I agree that these folks, by virtue of lacking any viable way to independently contract work, cannot reasonably be described as independent contractors. But they don't quite fit the mold of "employee", either.

Then there is another portion of drivers who really are doing this full time. I am guessing that they are a small minority of individual drivers, but that, in larger cities, they may account for a majority of rideshare capacity.

Anyway, if this is how it shakes out, then, regardless of the ratios, it doesn't really make sense to speak about "ridehsare drivers" as if they're a homogeneous unit whose needs can reasonably be met with a one-size-fits-all classification. Perhaps there needs to be a tiered designation, comparable to the various employee sub-designations such as "full time", "part time", "exempt", "non-exempt", etc., that states codify.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#713

Post by aflag »

eru wrote: post #688
aflag wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think giving the ability for one driver to promote their services over other drivers is also a key feature. Each driver needs to be able to differentiate themselves and not be essentially interchangeable.

> Each driver needs to be able to differentiate themselves and not be essentially interchangeable. Is that an opinion on the legal situation, or meant as a suggestion for how to build a better business?

That's the a key difference for me to consider it a contractor/client relationship rather than a employer/employee relationship. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know what the law says in each country Uber operates.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#714

Post by anticensor »

marcrosoft wrote: post #5

This is an example of regulation getting in the way of innovation again. It’s like they want the medallion taxi system again.

There is a solution to the medallion problem: make the taxi licences non-transferable and require taxicabs to be owned by drivers themselves.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#715

Post by jasode »

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #707
jasode wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All gig workers are slaves and we should treat each other with more dignity and upgrade them to employees. It's our bloody duty as a decent human being. Lyft/Uber can upgrade them to employees but the arithmetic of bottom-up economics means Uber has to raise prices to cover full employment benefits. The raised fares conflict with what passengers are willing to pay . E.g. even though yellow medallion taxis often cost…

> Also as far as I can tell, there is no worker co-op owned by the drivers anywhere in the world that treats members/drivers as employees with benefits. Why is that? http://www.unioncabpdx.com/ The world is a big place. I'm sure there are others.

>http://www.unioncabpdx.com/

Are you responding to the actual constraints in this discussion of _employees_ with _benefits_?

As far as I can tell, Union Cab PDX does not provide employee benefits such as:

- minimum hourly wage

- paid time off (e.g. funding 2 weeks vacation)

- unemployment payments if laid off

I don't know if it's related but Unioncabpdx recently left the CWA Local 7901 union as they weren't paying membership dues: https://nwlaborpress.org/2018/12/union-cab-quietly-goes-non-...

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#716

Post by [deleted] »

xxpor wrote: post #90
nerfhammer wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why doesn't this happen for truck drivers or traditional taxi drivers, who are also usually contractors?

For truckers: a) a class A CDL takes a lot more effort to obtain than a regular driver's licence. there's a much more constrained supply, so you don't end up with a race to the bottom on the demand side as much. b) the quantity of hours truckers can work is set by the federal Department of Transportation. with electronic logging becoming mandatory, that'll cut down even more on people being able to work off the clock…

[deleted]

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#717

Post by frockington1 »

itsoktocry wrote: post #675
JaceLightning wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I vehemently disagree. I used to tutor for Chegg tutors on the side--outside my main job. They paid ~$20/hr and for 5-10 hours I week I could bring in some extra money for food and rent. They shut it down in my state because they reclassified them as employees, and Chegg was not going to do all that leg work to bring people on as part-time employees. I didn't need benefits like sick days or unpaid leave since it was…

> It's the bloody taxi companies trying to get back at Uber because taxi drivers ARE real jobs that require real benefits, and they can't compete with a better business model. Ah, yes, Big Taxi conspiracy. I can't imagine thinking a company losing billions while subsidizing chauffeurs for rich people while skirting laws is a "better business model". > Fuck California. Have you considered living in a place that doesn'…

I've done gig work on top of my regular job to have a little extra in savings. Really helped during the virus when the stock market went on sale. Luckily I'm in a free state and don't have to worry too much about this regulation spreading

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#718

Post by frockington1 »

rideontime wrote: post #674
JaceLightning wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I vehemently disagree. I used to tutor for Chegg tutors on the side--outside my main job. They paid ~$20/hr and for 5-10 hours I week I could bring in some extra money for food and rent. They shut it down in my state because they reclassified them as employees, and Chegg was not going to do all that leg work to bring people on as part-time employees. I didn't need benefits like sick days or unpaid leave since it was…

If you care so much about the kids you were tutoring, why didn't you continue tutoring them yourself, without the rent-seeking middleman?

There is a lot of regulation and paperwork/fees to start your own business. Makes it hard to justify if you only want to tutor a few hours a week

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#719

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

maxehmookau wrote: post #694
murgindrag wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as "society is not willing to pay the higher prices for drivers to be treated as employees." Society isn't a brain which thinks. There is emergent behavior. * I am glad to be forced to pay more to have Uber/Lyft drivers treated well. I think we should have worker's right protections. * I am unwilling to pay more myself as a one-off (e.g. through tipping). It's a Prisoner's Dilemma. That's what…

> There is no such thing as "society is not willing to pay the higher prices for drivers to be treated as employees." Society isn't a brain which thinks. There is emergent behavior. I don't see this argument made enough, especially on HN.

I think because a lot of people realize that "brains which think" are themselves emergent behavior of a complex system, which is ultimately not really different.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#720

Post by wavepruner »

ec109685 wrote: post #464
wavepruner wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an on-and-off Uber driver. It's a great gig to supplement my income. As someone who has many limitations from a disability, it's almost impossible to find a job that classifies me as an employee. I just don't get hired. And I need to take a break when I need to take a break. I can't have someone dictating my hours for me. In my city, which fortunately is not in California, being classified as an Uber employee wou…

Nurses have a lot of these benefits. You can work certain shifts for more money than other shifts. Similarly restaurant workers.

Incorrect. I cannot do these jobs. I would quickly lose my ability to walk and use my hands. And no one hires someone who randomly needs to take weeks off and can only work 5-10 hours a week when they can work at all.

Not sure why you think you know what my limitations are. Or where you get the idea that employers actually hire disabled people. Look at the unemployment rate for disabled people.

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