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TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

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Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#211

Post by [deleted] »

endogui wrote: post #168
buran77 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are backed by an entity which has plans for global dominance and are not exactly aligned with American interests The irony is that each of the entities has plans for global dominance, which is incompatible with the plans and interests the other one has. The sad part is that it turns out the US is willing to forgo its values if this gives them a leg up on China. Makes any future rhetoric on values and morals se…

Rhetoric about US values has been empty since Guantanamo Bay started housing "foreign militants". Europe seems to be the only place in the West where a commitment to human rights is sincere.

[deleted]

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#212

Post by _8j50 »

wcoenen wrote: post #176
boomboomsubban wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word "citizen" is not present in the Bill of Rights. The Amendments guarantee rights that you already have, countries can't give you rights.

> The Amendments guarantee rights that you already have, countries can't give you rights. This statement confused me, probably because I'm not from the US and am missing some cultural dogma/context. But the way I think about it, "rights" are not encoded in the laws of physics. They are social constructs. Therefore different societies can come up with a different and even conflicting set of "rights".

You should take a look at the declaration of independence for the US. There are two types of right. The first kind is agreed upon by society like you said, the second kind are inherent to anyone and they originate from a common understanding of a creator endowing all humans with equal rights. Self evident rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" as they put it.

But regardless of origin, a constitution defines what the country is made up of. Constitutional rights are a contract where the government is allowed to govern and secure the people if and only if they secure those rights and follow the articles of the constitution.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#213

Post by frequentnapper »

squarefoot wrote: post #192
gampleman wrote: post #121

So if the problem is that TikTok is gathering too much invasive data on US citizens (and supposedly siphoning it to China), and their defence is basically "So what, it's legal and everyone else is doing it too!", then isn't the obvious solution making actual digital privacy legislation that would make such data vacuuming illegal? That would solve the problem and make the American market a fair playing field rather th…

That is not the problem. I'm not a US citizen, but let's pretend I am; as a normal citizen (ie, not a politician or high profile important person) would I be more concerned about my personal data being sent to a foreign country who doesn't know me, my family, my job, and very likely will never give a damn about what i think, or rather my own government who has all interests to know what I think, especially during pro…

unless you happened to criticize the chinese govt and travelled via hong kong at a later date.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#214

Post by bhupy »

_8j50 wrote: post #51

Is this not a freedom of speech issue? The right is guaranteed for foreingners in the US as well. If they can ban tik tok, they can ban signal or briar because those also might send your encrypted data overseas or because their use among "violent" protestors is a risk. How about VPN apps that siphon your personal data to china and russia! Haha Here's the thing, US bigtech complies (in secret) with US intel community…

The US President is granted wide-ranging authority to regulate international commerce

The executive order doesn't outright ban the use of TikTok (the app), it just places a ban on "any transactions subject to the jurisdiction of the United States with ByteDance", which in essence makes it impossible for people to find the app on an App store. It's almost identical to the Huawei/ZTE executive orders. It's a bit like an economic sanction on a country, which may also include companies that engage in media/speech.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#215

Post by boomboomsubban »

wcoenen wrote: post #176
boomboomsubban wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word "citizen" is not present in the Bill of Rights. The Amendments guarantee rights that you already have, countries can't give you rights.

> The Amendments guarantee rights that you already have, countries can't give you rights. This statement confused me, probably because I'm not from the US and am missing some cultural dogma/context. But the way I think about it, "rights" are not encoded in the laws of physics. They are social constructs. Therefore different societies can come up with a different and even conflicting set of "rights".

You are always free to take any action you are physically and mentally capable of. A government can only restrict that freedom by enforcing laws, they are unable to make you more free.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#216

Post by joubert »

wcoenen wrote: post #176
boomboomsubban wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word "citizen" is not present in the Bill of Rights. The Amendments guarantee rights that you already have, countries can't give you rights.

> The Amendments guarantee rights that you already have, countries can't give you rights. This statement confused me, probably because I'm not from the US and am missing some cultural dogma/context. But the way I think about it, "rights" are not encoded in the laws of physics. They are social constructs. Therefore different societies can come up with a different and even conflicting set of "rights".

> But the way I think about it, "rights" are not encoded in the laws of physics. They are social constructs.

There's a long history of reasoning (i.e. logic) from first principles how to best establish communities, for example Rousseau's 1762 work, The Social Contract.

Some key arguments that Rousseau expounds:

* force does not create right; we are only obligated to obey legitimate powers

* everyone is free (because we each give up the same rights and have the same duties imposed, e.g. around property rights)

* absurd for someone to surrender freedom for slavery

There are underlying commonalities between Rousseau's work and intellectual artifacts from other cultures, such as "reciprocity" expressed by Confucius in Analects: "do not do to others what you would not want others to do to you". This concept of reciprocity is also echoed in the Christian doctrine of the golden rule.

> Therefore different societies can come up with a different and even conflicting set of "rights".

Do you not think that there are universal human rights?

For example, those enumerated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights - https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#217

Post by bhupy »

alexmingoia wrote: post #106
khuey wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no "basic right" of foreign businesses to do business in the United States.

How so? Americans have the right to trade with foreign companies. Apple should have the right to trade with foreign companies, in this case, TikTok. US restrictions on foreign trade are restrictions on Americans.

Americans have no such right — the US government has the authority to impose economic sanctions on foreign governments that explicitly prohibit doing business with their companies.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#218

Post by joubert »

coldcode wrote: post #194
endogui wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ButeDance is a Chinese company responsible for complying with directives from the CCP. If one doesn't trust the CCP, then one should not trust ByteDance.

Facebook is American company responsible for complying with directives from the US Government. If one doesn't trust the US, then one should not trust Facebook. How is this any different? The US is one of the Five Eyes countries. They routinely spy on their own people (see Snowdon et al). I see no difference between the two in this regard, other than the US has a court system that sometimes acts independently and has…

Isn't it a matter of degree?

For example, do individuals in the US not enjoy more freedom (of speech) than individuals in China?

Isn't it worth supporting and enhancing one regime and fight against the other (at least on this dimension)?

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#219

Post by arcturus17 »

disgu wrote: post #162
arcturus17 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Authoritarian states do have laws to justify what they do From my original comment, which you replied to: > There are laws in China, but ultimately a corporation is subject to the whims of the Chinese Communist Party. Either you didn't read that part, chose to omit it, or you are being deliberately rude, questioning "what I'm on about". The difference between those authoritarian regimes and a democracy under the Ru…

> You did not address the fundamental point which is that an Executive Order can be challenged in a Court of Law - it will be, in fact. > Do you think a decision by the CCP, Xi Jinping, Kim Jong-Un or Mohammad Bin Salman would be afforded the same level of guarantees? Yes, absolutely. It happens all the time. Those rulers use _the laws afforded to them_ to rule. It's completely wrong to suggest that they just do what…

You are absolutely delusional if you think dictatorships work under strict Rule of Law like democracies. This is basic middle school stuff - ideas that have been developed during centuries by the liberal tradition and even hark back to the Classical world - so I'm not going to bother debating it here.

I will however leave some data, from the World Justice Project Rule of Law Index 2020 [1]. These indices measure how strong the Rule of Law is in each country:

Germany - 0.84

United Kingdom - 0.79

Japan - 0.78

US - 0.73

France - 0.73

South Korea - 0.73

---

China - 0.48

Russia - 0.47

Turkey - 0.43

There's no data for North Korea or Saudi Arabia, because they're so closed that there's not even a point in trying to judge the quality of their legal system. Go figure.

[1] https://worldjusticeproject.org/our-work/publications/rule-l...

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#220

Post by [deleted] »

splintercell wrote: post #204
squarefoot wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not the problem. I'm not a US citizen, but let's pretend I am; as a normal citizen (ie, not a politician or high profile important person) would I be more concerned about my personal data being sent to a foreign country who doesn't know me, my family, my job, and very likely will never give a damn about what i think, or rather my own government who has all interests to know what I think, especially during pro…

China doesn't care about you because you're not a good target, you want to know who is a good Target? Chinese people living in your country, they can be blackmailed into doing things against the interests of your government.

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