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Planet Ceres is an 'ocean world' with sea water beneath surface, mission finds

theguardian.com

101–110 of 264 posts

Re: Planet Ceres is an 'ocean world' with sea water beneath surface, mission finds

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another problem with silicon is that its basic oxide (Silicon Dioxide) is a solid that is non-reactive with virtually everything. If you assume water based life, there is almost certainly going to be oxides involved, such as how CO2 is involved with earth life. And I think water based life chemistry is an extremely good bet, because alternative liquids based off of light, common elements are either only liquid at ver…

> Another problem with silicon is that its basic oxide (Silicon Dioxide) is a solid that is non-reactive with virtually everything. I was amused once by reading an MSDS for silicon dioxide. As I presume is required, they do list some hazards of exposure, but if you read the sheets for other substances the contrast is pretty striking. Look at the health effects listed on https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/09890.htm :…

I'm reminded of

> [Chlorine trifluoride is] also a stronger oxidizing agent than oxygen itself, which also puts it into rare territory. That means that it can potentially go on to “burn” things that you would normally consider already burnt to hell and gone, and a practical consequence of that is that it’ll start roaring reactions with things like bricks and asbestos tile. It’s been used in the semiconductor industry to clean oxides off of surfaces, at which activity it no doubt excels.

—Derek Lowe, “Sand Won’t Save You This Time”

Re: Planet Ceres is an 'ocean world' with sea water beneath surface, mission finds

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Numerous other ideas exist for alien life, but most of them have their shortcomings. It all boils down to chemical reactions and physics. Imagine a universe of only helium. No valence electrons would be readily available, so chances are you are not going to see helium molecules. Lithium, sure, as a metal. Continue examining various smaller (and more plentiful elements). Fluorine? Well, only one slot available, so you…

You only considered chemistry-based life. Cannot hold it against you of course. But some hard SF writers like Baxter also imagined life based on electromagnetic interactions, nuclear reactions (life in the mantle of a neutron star), fluid vortices and turbulences (life in liquid or gaseous planets), etc. Basically he included a lot of substrates that could be used to implement complexity. Also, a big drawback of sear…

That neutron star story is wild. Hard recommendation to read.

One point I have with Baxter is that his premises are just bananas, but the people acting in them are pretty recognizable. To be fair, if the characters were also nutter-butter, no one would read it, as it wouldn't be a story anymore, just a strangely formatted research paper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flux_(novel)

Re: Planet Ceres is an 'ocean world' with sea water beneath surface, mission finds

#103
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wondered why we are overly focused on the conditions that created life on earth. Arguably it makes sense to see similar conditions lead to life. But do we really know enough to assume that's only way?

Numerous other ideas exist for alien life, but most of them have their shortcomings. It all boils down to chemical reactions and physics. Imagine a universe of only helium. No valence electrons would be readily available, so chances are you are not going to see helium molecules. Lithium, sure, as a metal. Continue examining various smaller (and more plentiful elements). Fluorine? Well, only one slot available, so you…

Essay by Isaac Asimov considering viable chemistries for life: "Not as we know it. The chemistry of life"

http://www.bigear.org/CSMO/HTML/CS09/cs09p05.htm

I was surprised to realise (that besides being N author) that he was a professor of biochemistry.

Re: Planet Ceres is an 'ocean world' with sea water beneath surface, mission finds

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You only considered chemistry-based life. Cannot hold it against you of course. But some hard SF writers like Baxter also imagined life based on electromagnetic interactions, nuclear reactions (life in the mantle of a neutron star), fluid vortices and turbulences (life in liquid or gaseous planets), etc. Basically he included a lot of substrates that could be used to implement complexity. Also, a big drawback of sear…

That neutron star story is wild . Hard recommendation to read. One point I have with Baxter is that his premises are just bananas, but the people acting in them are pretty recognizable. To be fair, if the characters were also nutter-butter, no one would read it, as it wouldn't be a story anymore, just a strangely formatted research paper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flux_(novel)

For another life on neutron star: Dragons Egg, Robert L. Forward

Re: Planet Ceres is an 'ocean world' with sea water beneath surface, mission finds

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Numerous other ideas exist for alien life, but most of them have their shortcomings. It all boils down to chemical reactions and physics. Imagine a universe of only helium. No valence electrons would be readily available, so chances are you are not going to see helium molecules. Lithium, sure, as a metal. Continue examining various smaller (and more plentiful elements). Fluorine? Well, only one slot available, so you…

You only considered chemistry-based life. Cannot hold it against you of course. But some hard SF writers like Baxter also imagined life based on electromagnetic interactions, nuclear reactions (life in the mantle of a neutron star), fluid vortices and turbulences (life in liquid or gaseous planets), etc. Basically he included a lot of substrates that could be used to implement complexity. Also, a big drawback of sear…

"Life" could also be AI machines.

If we seeded a planet with sufficiently advanced robots, that can mine and build and learn and make copies of themselves on their own, and a few centuries later they have a civilization, does it matter what they're made of?

For all intents and purposes, it would be life.

Perhaps at some point we should/will have to stop saying "life" at some point and use terms like "agent" instead, to include disembodied intelligences shaping the universe through their decisions and stuff like that. :)

Re: Planet Ceres is an 'ocean world' with sea water beneath surface, mission finds

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another problem with silicon is that its basic oxide (Silicon Dioxide) is a solid that is non-reactive with virtually everything. I was amused once by reading an MSDS for silicon dioxide. As I presume is required, they do list some hazards of exposure, but if you read the sheets for other substances the contrast is pretty striking. Look at the health effects listed on https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/09890.htm :…

I'm reminded of > [Chlorine trifluoride is] also a stronger oxidizing agent than oxygen itself, which also puts it into rare territory. That means that it can potentially go on to “burn” things that you would normally consider already burnt to hell and gone, and a practical consequence of that is that it’ll start roaring reactions with things like bricks and asbestos tile. It’s been used in the semiconductor industry…

And from an MSDS for that...

> Hazardous combustion products: None that are more toxic than the product itself.

( https://www.boconline.ie/en/images/chlorine_trifluoride_tcm6... )

It's a fun read.

Re: Planet Ceres is an 'ocean world' with sea water beneath surface, mission finds

#108
post #2

Ceres is one of the more interesting candidates for life in our solar system. Ceres is in the habitable zone for our solar system (although just barely), it's surface temperature is -30 F (eq. to winter in Greenland), and it's detected that the water on the surface is 20% carbon by mass (though that can mean a lot of things).

Considering that there's organisms that live at ridiculous pressures, with absolutely no sunlight and at the extreme temperatures of deep sea volcanic vents, I would not be surprised at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrothermal_vent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrothermal_vent_microbial_co...

The question is can life arise in such an environment, or only migrate to one.

That's yet to be determined as far as I know: extremophiles have all evolved from less tolerant life forms as far as I'm aware.

Re: Planet Ceres is an 'ocean world' with sea water beneath surface, mission finds

#109
post #2

Ceres is one of the more interesting candidates for life in our solar system. Ceres is in the habitable zone for our solar system (although just barely), it's surface temperature is -30 F (eq. to winter in Greenland), and it's detected that the water on the surface is 20% carbon by mass (though that can mean a lot of things).

Would evolutionary timelines or cycles be slower in an overall colder planet? (Thinking of those interactive diagrams for temperature on the kinetic energy of molecules zooming around in closed space)

Did you ever read Dragon's Egg?

It's a speculative hard sci-fi that posits ultra-fast evolution for life on the surface crust of a neutron star!

Re: Planet Ceres is an 'ocean world' with sea water beneath surface, mission finds

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Numerous other ideas exist for alien life, but most of them have their shortcomings. It all boils down to chemical reactions and physics. Imagine a universe of only helium. No valence electrons would be readily available, so chances are you are not going to see helium molecules. Lithium, sure, as a metal. Continue examining various smaller (and more plentiful elements). Fluorine? Well, only one slot available, so you…

You only considered chemistry-based life. Cannot hold it against you of course. But some hard SF writers like Baxter also imagined life based on electromagnetic interactions, nuclear reactions (life in the mantle of a neutron star), fluid vortices and turbulences (life in liquid or gaseous planets), etc. Basically he included a lot of substrates that could be used to implement complexity. Also, a big drawback of sear…

Oh, I remember the convection cell Qax from Baxter, read Dragon's Egg when it came out, or Brin's Sundiver for solar dwellers, or go even further back for the Piers Anthony's OX, even the frozen lattices of light from 2001. I could try speculating on some pretty strange forms of life, and have, but ultimately life -- and as fuzzy as that term is -- might well be construed as interlocking sets of cycles, self-perpetuating at the expense of various resources, always with the second law coming up from behind, waiting to knock it all out of balance, pluck teeth from the gears.

I could talk about how the various conditions at the surface of a neutron star probably cannot support the kind of interactions that would lead to a nuclear pseudo-chemistry (the elements aren't as important so much as the kind of bonds, and therefore structure supported, are, with the other physical properties being less important), but I would like to take a different tack and think about life arising. How would all of those little cycles, circadian down to Krebs, get started?

My intuition? guess? is that just as we are big bags of internalized seawater, life would have hijacked, replicated, and then encapsulated already existing cycles, multiple cycles. Just once cycle wouldn't cut it, probably not even two. I think for us it was all about warm little tidepools, water comes in, then the day-night cycle keeps changing the concentrations. Another tide comes, more water and something, perhaps waste, is washed out. Enough times, enough luck, maybe something sticks, holds something back in case the next splash isn't as big. The next big trick is a membrane, something to isolate the cycles. Separates the outside from the inside. Now there's something to separate.

Overall, though? You're still going to need matter that supports both structure (at least for a membrane, a boundary between in and out) and fluidity (for those cycles). I've thought a lot about what the bare minimum would be, but the Earth chemistry is just a shorthand for "what bonds, and therefore structure, can be maintained?" and "how will it flow?" I am pretty confident in saying it would have to obey Fermi statistics, instead of Bose, because bosons love to play follow the leader, but fermions need to stand out (and apart) enough that they can at least stand. The convection cell entities were interesting to think about but would require an almost unparalleled level of stability and uniformity across large expanses of matter, sort of a large-scale "lab conditions" environment, free of fluctuation and interference, somewhere relatively calm. I have considered something not too far away from that, life existing in an environment where the average energy levels were constant, but the entropy wasn't: life optimized to hunt not for calories but for pockets of order to bolster its own.

Non-chemical life is fun to speculate about but ... I keep coming back to structure and fluidity. It's difficult to find phases of matter that support both that aren't in the chemical domain.

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