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Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

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Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#441
post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A town wants a bridge built. They set a maximum price. Three contractors submits bids. They are all at the maximum price – instead the contractors differentiate themselves based on quality of previous work and distance to the construction site. A fourth contractor thinks the price is too little and rejects it outright. The fourth contractor has "submitted a lower bid"?

The fourth contractor submits a bid above the minimum price.

Yes, sorry, I misspoke (edit: actually, I think you misspoke in your previous comment, and then I copied the mistake).

But no, the fourth contractor did not submit a bid at a higher price. They did not submit a bid at all.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employees can set their own hours. White collar employees do it all the time... It's up to the employer what freedoms they allow. Generally, like with existing businesses, it would probably utilize a shift assignment system, where employees get assigned shifts but can swap them with other employees.

The aforementioned drivers opting to work 10 hours a week, what are their options? The way I see it, as employees, their employers will either give them benefits for 10 hour work, or force them to work 40 hours.

An employee working 10 hours a week is already a thing, it's called part-time work. Part time employees have fewer benefits and exist in many industries, e.g. food service. A weekend barista at Starbucks is not an independent contractor.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid you're repeating Uber's favorite talking point, which is that everyone should respect the worker's decision to be an employee or contractor. Nobody disputes that Uber can have employees or contractors (or both), or that drivers should, in principle, be able to choose what status they hold. The problem is that Uber currently exerts so much control over its "independent contractor" relationships that they ha…

Having been a driver for 1.5 years my questions for you are these: 1. If Uber and Lyft allow their drivers to choose, would it be reasonable for them to make "having the other app on at the same time" cause for dismissal? I know of no other employee that is allowed to simultaneously bill time on a competitor. Contractors, absolutely. Employees, no. 2. What if Uber, instead, charged $1.00/mo for the drivers to use the…

AFAIK here is a "duty of loyalty" that requires you not to compete with your employer so working for a company that directly competes with them would be out. Like working for both Waymo and Uber self driving cars at the same time "as an employee". As a contractor no such standard exists.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, maybe I just don't know enough people, but I don't know any employee (with benefits and such) that can just stop working for their company for 12 months with no prior notice, and then pick it back up whenever. And infinite variations on that refrain. I also don't know any employee who gets paid money by the customer to do a job, of which a small portion is taken by the company. For every "employee" I know, it wo…

Uber gets paid, not the driver. The money does not drop directly into the driver's bank account. The driver cannot decide to change his rate or charge extra if the customer pukes in the car. And besides, Getting a cut of your sales and it's called commission. Independence goes much further - can the driver assign someone else to do the job?

Uber collects the payment. But it belongs to the driver. Uber then takes a fraction of it.

As with any other marketplace/platform: Amazon, Patreon, App Stores, Twitch, Steam, etc.

Stripe collects payments for me when I sell my app. The money does not drop directly into my bank account.

And I don't think Uber has any problem with drivers hiring other people to drive their car and do Uber for them. The people that take an issue with that are the municipalities that want to require background checks, etc. for drivers.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things. Firstly, if you consider that Uber is only an intermediary and nothing else, then the consumer is the employer . Making this collective bargaining, Employers are consumers in the labour market. Price fixing is always against the interests of a pure consumer, including collective bargaining. Unions are beneficial because (and only if) the vast majority are workers much moreso than consumers. Secondly, as w…

So if you live in a town with three welders, and those three welders come together and agree that they will not ever weld for below $X/h in the town (which is significantly above market price of nearby, equivalent towns), then that is not price-fixing , because the people that want welding services are suddenly "welder employers" because they are buying a service? I... don't think that's right. The price of rides is…

>So if you live in a town with three welders, and those three welders come together and agree that they will not ever weld for below $X/h in the town (which is significantly above market price of nearby, equivalent towns), then that is not price-fixing, because the people that want welding services are suddenly "welder employers" because they are buying a service? I... don't think that's right.

There is a huge difference between this and an Uber driver. All Uber drivers are commodified, there is no distinction between them outside what Uber itself does. Uber's drivers have no control over how they do their job. Uber's drivers have no control over the fares they charge outside accept/refuse. If the three welders were indistinguishable from each other, and all had the same entity decide vast amounts of how they do their job and for how much, then yes, it would be simply collective bargaining.

Once again, there is massive strawman going on here that you are perpetuating. I'm not saying that it isn't price-fixing. All collective bargaining is price fixing. All of it, without exception. As a society, we allow workers to engage in price fixing because workers have very low individual power and it is in our collective interest for workers to negotiate together. That is the point I'm trying to get across. All square are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares. All collective bargaining is price-fixing, not all price-fixing is collective bargaining.

>The price of rides is determined by the market. Uber arguably has the least say of the three stakeholders – their goal is to merely "make the market". Riders demand low-prices, drivers demand high ones. Uber doesn't really "choose" a price, they just find the happy medium that the market demands.

This is ridiculous on its face. Unless there is a mechanism on Uber for drivers to bid on rides, then fare prices are not fair market prices negotiated between drivers and riders, but instead prices decided between Uber and riders. Uber very certainly chooses a price, and the riders don't. They do not participate in market pricing any more than a factory worker threatening to quit their job contributes to increasing the price of a widget. Most importantly, Uber does not allow the drivers to even know the actual price the riders pay, so this is just ridiculous.

>Uber pays drivers in the same way that Stripe "pays" me when I make a sale of my app – that is to say, not at all. Stripe pays me, but they are clearly not my employer. Uber is collecting payments and then disbursing them, as literally any marketplace does. Does Steam "employ" all the game developers that sell on their platform? Does Etsy employ all the independent makers? Apple's App Store? Twitch? Amazon? Patreon?

If Stripe told you exactly which app to make and how, and did not let you explicitly state which price you would sell the app for, and did not even let you know which price consumers were paying, had a variable cut that is obscure to you, did not let you market your apps individually, and only gave you the option to either make the app or not, then you would be an employee of Stripe, yes. If Steam told you which app to make and how, which price it would give you, didn't tell you how much they would charge customers, and didn't differentiate you from other gamedevs then yes, you would be an employee of Steam. Rinse and repeat.

The core business of Uber, in revenue and valuation, is 100% to provide rides for people. Scooters and bikes are a drop in the bucket, and technically come from an acquisition and thus are not a core business. This is like saying that the core business of Apple isn't to make iPhones, it's connect consumers with engineers and factory workers that make phones. Except the consumers don't choose which engineers make them, how much they are paid, or even really differentiate them before paying at all.

>To compare this to Steam again – the core business of Steam is not "game developers", even though their core business would not exist without game developers. Their business is a marketplace. I actually really like the Steam comparison because it literally ticks all the same boxes you are ticking for Uber: they set prices, accept/disburse payments, and wouldn't exist without 3rd parties and their labor. But nobody is claiming that Steam should start paying health/holidy/etc benefits for all the indie game developers that sell games on their platform.

Steam does not set prices. Steam lets the gamedevs/publishers decide of they price they want. Steam lets you market yourself. Steam does not tell you what game you should make (what route you should take), they do not tell you which programming languages you can use (which cars you can use), and does not rely on contractors for its core business (Steam does not rely on one-person indie game developers for their core business). Steam is incomparable to Uber. The idea of why Uber doesn't let you use any car, by the way, is in order not to damage their brand. Because you, as a driver, represent Uber, and they know it. In a way, your most important asset, Uber's brand, is not owned by you but by Uber - you then generate profit from someone else's capital for a wage - an employee.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#446
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding #2, that's just generally not how the law works. There may be some cases where legal technicalities are successfully argued, but in general the legal system doesn't put up with someone sticking their finger a millimeter from its face and saying " technically I'm not touching you."

okay, let's make the price higher. Let's make it $150/mo. Now we're about 10 centimeters away from your face, and not too far off from what taxicab companies do.

Yeah. I pay PayPal to process payments for me: I don't work for them. Hell: I pay Apple to publish apps to the App Store on my behalf, and they even decide whether my app is "OK" or not: when they tell me to make a change to my app, I must do that or I lose my ability to collect revenue. They even require I use certain tools that I have to purchase from the company store to do my work. I have no direct relationship with the customer. They collect all of my money, and then pay me. Am I somehow an employee of Apple? Supposedly I am Apple's customer, but it sometimes doesn't feel like that ;P.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#447

The consequences of this ruling are probably not going to be known for a while. This is certainly bad for Uber & Lyft insofar as it will greatly increase their operating costs. The question is what effect the ruling will have on drivers. Uber is not a profitable company with fat margins like Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple or Netflix. I don't see any way for Uber to absorb the increased costs that come with full empl…

Profitability should have no bearing on whether drivers are classified as employees or contractors. If these companies can’t turn a profit while complying with the law then they don’t have a viable business model. That is entirely their problem.

Furthermore, the assumptions you make regarding future hiring practices are unfounded. Nothing stipulates that resumes or interviews, let alone in person, would be required to extend employment.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things, like not being able to set their own rates, meant drivers were never contractors, even if they wanted the perks of contracting (e.g, choose your own hours). Saying 'I wish to be a contractor' isn't legally sufficient: the agreement needs to permit setting rates.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think "setting their own rates" has anything to do with it. Any driver would be able to set their own rates by going at it alone, completely independent from a ride share company. They would create their own service and charge what they want. However, because the drivers choose to participate in the Uber/Lyft marketplace and benefit from the network affects that they have created…

> "However, because the drivers choose to participate in the Uber/Lyft marketplace and benefit from the network affects that they have created, it follows that Uber/Lyft would have a say in the cost of goods"

I can participate in Ebay / Amazon marketplace, and I can set any price I want if I decide to sell my TV there. They take their commission, and provide some conflict mediation.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#449
post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The aforementioned drivers opting to work 10 hours a week, what are their options? The way I see it, as employees, their employers will either give them benefits for 10 hour work, or force them to work 40 hours.

An employee working 10 hours a week is already a thing, it's called part-time work. Part time employees have fewer benefits and exist in many industries, e.g. food service. A weekend barista at Starbucks is not an independent contractor.

A weekend barista is only comparable to a gig economy driver the day that they can decide on a whim to show up to work for an hour or take a 2 week break unannounced, bail in the middle of a shift, or skip a shift altogether with no repercussions.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, maybe I just don't know enough people, but I don't know any employee (with benefits and such) that can just stop working for their company for 12 months with no prior notice, and then pick it back up whenever. And infinite variations on that refrain. I also don't know any employee who gets paid money by the customer to do a job, of which a small portion is taken by the company. For every "employee" I know, it wo…

Uber gets paid, not the driver. The money does not drop directly into the driver's bank account. The driver cannot decide to change his rate or charge extra if the customer pukes in the car. And besides, Getting a cut of your sales and it's called commission. Independence goes much further - can the driver assign someone else to do the job?

A quick search is showing me a ton of answers on Quora of being emphatically stating that Uber actively allows you to hire people to drive your car for you, as long as you can show they are insured to do so: the money goes to you, to the one parent account, so you get to decide how to pay your subcontractors; supposedly you can even register as a corporation?
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