Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law • Hacker News Board

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#301

Post by Aunche » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 1:59 PM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #110

throwaway-semi wrote: post #36

Why are we empowering this regime? Shouldn't we force companies like Apple to make a statement of why they manufacture their goods in China? Apple is happy make a statement about BLM - it is cheap, doesn't cost them anything. But when it comes to things that actually harm profits and challenge shareholder responsibilities, they stay mum. We need to force Apple (and other giant corporations) to speak up about atrociti…

Apple has spoken extensively about why they choose to manufacture in China. https://www.inc.com/glenn-leibowitz/apple-ceo-tim-cook-this-... If you had to quantify how much Apple supporting BLM has helped decrease racism, it's probably very close to zero. Voicing their support for Hong Kong would accomplish even less. Why would they jeopardize potential billions of dollars to do so?

I see... so Hackernews thinks that Apple should spend billions of dollars on meaningless virtue signaling, but can't even be bothered to justify it.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#302

Post by grzm » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 2:03 PM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #301

Aunche wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has spoken extensively about why they choose to manufacture in China. https://www.inc.com/glenn-leibowitz/apple-ceo-tim-cook-this-... If you had to quantify how much Apple supporting BLM has helped decrease racism, it's probably very close to zero. Voicing their support for Hong Kong would accomplish even less. Why would they jeopardize potential billions of dollars to do so?

I see... so Hackernews thinks that Apple should spend billions of dollars on meaningless virtue signaling, but can't even be bothered to justify it.

> "so Hackernews thinks"

You are "hackernews" as much as anyone else here. Commenters are individuals holding their own, differing opinions.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#303

Post by iabacu » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 2:08 PM UTC

dqpb wrote: post #52

iabacu wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Xi Jinping and the CCP’s official goal is for the Chinese people and everyone else to have a common destiny. Interpret these how you wish, because they are interpreting these how they wish.

How does force sterilizing of Uighurs fit into a common destiny?

It’s not a that discriminative in terms of reproductive rights if you consider the one child policy that applied for a long time to a lot of people (mostly of Han ethnicity).

While the policy doesn’t exist anymore, it’s not about the policy, but who has the right to decide whether you’re allowed to have children.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#304

Post by darksaints » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 2:09 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #139

darksaints wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have never invaded any countries for purely human-rights oriented reasons. There is always a larger element of preservation of power structures and capture of wealth. But both of those reasons would also align with an intervention in China. The true answer to why we haven't intervened is both mundane and terrifying: China has nuclear weapons.

"The true answer to why we haven't intervened is both mundane and terrifying" No it's not. That China has nukes is not relevant because there's no impetus for the US to be 'invading' China whatsoever. Other than of course a standoff in Korea 60 years ago, the US and China are not military adversaries.

The US and Hussein's Iraq were not military adversaries until Iraq invaded Kuwait.

China absolutely is a geopolitical rival with militaristic and global hegemonic ambitions, and they have already committed to actions that we have gone to war over in the past. And they are on the cusp of a handful of actions that would have triggered a world war if they were done in the past. But nothing will happen to China for the same reason that nothing happened to Russia during the cold war. Because they have nukes.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#305

Post by ashconnor » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 2:19 PM UTC

powerapple wrote: post #279

jeswin wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If China lets HK go independent.. But HKers aren't even asking for full independence. They want to retain the democracy and freedom they've had so far. And the parallels with Soviet Union's collapse is debatable. At that point Soviet Union was on the brink of economic disaster, while China is at the height of their military and economic power.

I have to point out that under British rule, there was no democracy. If they want things exactly like they have before, the central government would send a governor to HK instead of having their own governor. China wanted HK to be special and successful, to use it as a showcase for the 'one country two systems' model. Now China just want to not lose HK. Huge change in thinking.

You can blame Sir Alexander Grantham and successive incompetent Governors such as Chris Patten who failed to implement democratic reforms well ahead of the handover.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#306

Post by Aunche » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 2:26 PM UTC

grzm wrote: post #302

Aunche wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see... so Hackernews thinks that Apple should spend billions of dollars on meaningless virtue signaling, but can't even be bothered to justify it.

> "so Hackernews thinks" You are "hackernews" as much as anyone else here. Commenters are individuals holding their own, differing opinions.

I genuinely want to know what these people are thinking. Similar comments also got downvoted with no explanation. Even if you're Kantian rather than utilitarian, you should understand that companies not wanting to spend billions of dollars on a lost cause.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#307

Post by throwaway5757 » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 2:30 PM UTC

acomjean wrote: post #46

The nytimes republished Jimmy Lai’s editorial today. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/opinion/hong-kong-china-n... “Do My Tweets Really Threaten China’s National Security?“

Do TikTok Videos Really Threaten America's National Security?

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#308

Post by chloerei » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 2:32 PM UTC

ailun wrote: post #277

chloerei wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you have read the National Security Law of the United States, which is broader and stricter than China... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jdp2JviTDA

Guess what? I don’t agree with many of the recent infringements on constitutional rights in the US either. I can criticize my country because I’m not a blind nationalist. And the US doing something wrong doesn’t excuse what China is doing to a formerly free society. Further, it’s impossible for anything to be more vague than the HK national security law - there must be some level of maximum vagueness and China has ac…

Reply to your last point first, you are right, I should quote easy-to-read material. I quote Nathan Rich because I first saw this law in his video. I extracted the link so that others can read it:

> 18 U.S. Code § 2385.Advocating overthrow of Government https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2385

In fact, China has learned a lot from the United States. Before the Hong Kong National Security Law was released, some people joked that it would be better to copy the laws of the United States directly, so that many disputes can be avoided.

I think no one wants his rights to be restricted until his right to life is threatened. If a group of people say they will destroy everything until the government compromises, then the streets are destroyed, the unemployment rate rises, and relatives hate each other. Someone will accept that all this must be legally bound.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#309

Post by simonh » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 2:45 PM UTC

JimDabell wrote: post #275

simonh wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's moral for those workers in China to take employment working on Apple products, I don't see why it's immoral for Apple to make the deals that create that employment. So no, I don't really see a difference. Business that especially benefits the Chinese government in particular, or that supports their oppressive activities, sure I can see that. I think Google took a principled moral stance in refusing to provide…

> If it's moral for those workers in China to take employment working on Apple products, I don't see why it's immoral for Apple to make the deals that create that employment. So no, I don't really see a difference. One of these is an economic necessity and one is not. People generally don’t have a choice but to participate in their local economy. Apple has a choice to participate in the Chinese economy. That’s the di…

It’s not a matter of necessary or not, it’s a matter of freedom or not. Mr Lai clearly gets this. He said he fights for freedom because it’s those freedoms that enabled his success. Those arguing against people exercising those rights are anti-freedom.

Now trade boycotts and restrictions can be justified in some circumstances. I’m not a fundamentalist, but pushing the responsibility on individuals, and doing so in a blatantly asymmetrical and partisan way to push a clearly unrelated agenda (why Apple in particular, really?) is reprehensible and I make no apology for saying so.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#310

Post by ailun » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 2:49 PM UTC

chloerei wrote: post #308

ailun wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guess what? I don’t agree with many of the recent infringements on constitutional rights in the US either. I can criticize my country because I’m not a blind nationalist. And the US doing something wrong doesn’t excuse what China is doing to a formerly free society. Further, it’s impossible for anything to be more vague than the HK national security law - there must be some level of maximum vagueness and China has ac…

Reply to your last point first, you are right, I should quote easy-to-read material. I quote Nathan Rich because I first saw this law in his video. I extracted the link so that others can read it: > 18 U.S. Code § 2385.Advocating overthrow of Government https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2385 In fact, China has learned a lot from the United States. Before the Hong Kong National Security Law was released, some…

That's great, you linked something specific to talk about. Interestingly, the actual application of that law demonstrates how rights are protected in the US. You may know that Chairman Xi thinks there should never be an independent judiciary in China. So the vague national security law there ends up as nothing but a tool of the state to arrest those it doesn't like.

In the US, the Supreme Court balances that law against our constitutional rights, rendering it almost unenforceable. In fact, the way that law is applied is very specific, not vague at all.

Please read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yates_v._United_States

Nathan Rich and people like him may be fun for you to watch because they confirm your worldview and reinforce your biases, but I suggest you read some real legal scholars if you're interested in actually educating yourself.

Edit: Also, getting back to the origin of this thread, nothing in US law prohibits what Jimmy Lai did. And nothing prohibited it when he did it in Hong Kong. Even besides how disgusting this law is, applying it retroactively is truly appalling.