Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law • Hacker News Board

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#261

Post by simonh » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:11 AM UTC

JimDabell wrote: post #225

simonh wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is immoral for Apple to do business in China, then why is it moral for Mr. Lai or anyone in Hong Kong to do business in China? This smacks as a pretty partisan double standard, and I have to wonder what you have against Apple that you would single them out in this way. Hong Kong and people like Mr. Lai has always done business in China and there's nothing reprehensible about that, nor is it reprehensible for an…

> If it is immoral for Apple to do business in China, then why is it moral for Mr. Lai or anyone in Hong Kong to do business in China? Why is it moral for Jimmy Lai – who was born there, grew up there, and lives there – to do business there? Are his only moral choices to be unemployed or emigrate? He needs to be economically active somewhere and that’s his home. You don’t have to have a "partisan double standard" or…

If it's moral for those workers in China to take employment working on Apple products, I don't see why it's immoral for Apple to make the deals that create that employment. So no, I don't really see a difference.

Business that especially benefits the Chinese government in particular, or that supports their oppressive activities, sure I can see that. I think Google took a principled moral stance in refusing to provide search services in China when it was clear those services would have to enable surveillance. I don't think they did anything wrong having their Pixel phones manufactured in China.

For context my wife in mainland Chinese, though now a British citizen, we go there regularly and have family there. I spend money in China, and don't think there's anything wrong with myself, businesses, or 'corporations' doing so either whatever we think of the CCP. So this sort of selective virtue posturing really rubs me up the wrong way.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#262

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:12 AM UTC

almost_usual wrote: post #203

fqye wrote: post #156

When it comes to politics, HN is similar to Reddit. People just comment by emotion and ideology, because they could feel the satisfaction by chanting the beautiful words of democracy and freedom, without burden of insightgul knowledge of history and culture of other people and countries. Some here even wanted to start a war with China in the name of human rights. Remember crusades in the name of Christian? Most peopl…

I’m going to get downvoted for saying this but I will. The wealthiest people on the planet who actually influence what governments do prioritize wealth accumulation above nationalism presently. If they didn’t every nation wouldn’t be so in bed with each other at this point. The aggression is a display of power and generate a ‘feeling’ of superiority to keep a population content. There won’t be a war. We’ll only see l…

[deleted]

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#263

Post by abc-xyz » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:14 AM UTC

dqpb wrote: post #185

tedhuang wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sure you never been to XinJiang

What would I see if I was there?

The most dystopian place in the world (VICE reporters undercover: https://youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ).

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#264

Post by ginko » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:15 AM UTC

tedhuang wrote: post #67

seibelj wrote: post #4

As an anecdote, someone I know is an immigrant from HK and has lived in the USA for many years, and this person is afraid of saying anything publicly against China out of fear. Fear for their family in China and fear for their personal safety even in the USA. Similar to how Russia murders defectors [0], it’s not a good idea to be an expat and criticize China. It is an authoritarian regime, bottom line. [0] https://en…

lol There lots of messages on Chinese social media criticize CPC eg. Weibo and Toutiao. Unless it is something really absurd no one will come after you

>Unless it is something really absurd no one will come after you

So would calling for the end of the Chinese one-party rule and democratic elections be considered 'really absurd'?

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#265

Post by tomp » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:16 AM UTC

chvid wrote: post #187

themgt wrote: post #91

I highly recommend doing some reading about what Xi and the CCP are really thinking and planning. It's a fascinating situation, and I'm not sure we or even they precisely know. But there has been a feel of a very dark turn overall in recent years, where perhaps an alignment between an appearance of widespread and growing failures of the US-led world order combined with China's unabated growing power, has cemented in…

What is the dystopian logic here? That the us led world order eventually will collapse due to global inequality is pretty standard thought in communist thinking. And of course China sees itself as a more just society with basis in the worker rather than the capital holder.

Where did you read this propaganda that you're parroting here?

In the past few decades, the global wealth inequality has decreased significantly (under the leadership of the "US empire" nevertheless).

China isn't communist, it's just a dictatorship. Very capitalist. Huge inequality as well, growing faster than the West and approaching US wealth inequality. I can't see how there would be less inequality under the rule of the "Chinese empire".

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#266

Post by ailun » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:16 AM UTC

chloerei wrote: post #84

As a Chinese, I think it is reasonable to arrest a leader who violated the national security law. Think of a US media tycoon who went to China to meet with the Secretary of State, used the media to incite riots in his country, appeared on the streets of protest, and publicly called on China to intervene in the United States. What are the consequences of this? Please read more media from a different standpoint and thi…

There would be no consequences because we have human rights. Hong Kong used to have those, and now they’ve lost them, which is a sad thing for humanity. Further, they’ve retroactively lost them - he and many others have been arrested for things they did before the national security law was in force, and so were legal at the time in their free society. China, by arresting them ex post facto, has proven them right.

You’re the one who needs to read more and get a new perspective - all you are doing is repeating the very common, very boring mainstream Chinese opinion.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#267

Post by tomp » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:18 AM UTC

eie7eu3hrruur wrote: post #259

toxik wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how high is the ceiling? What are you allowed to express, even though it’s controversial? Westerners all know that the ability to criticize those above you is the only check valve in the system, what drives our society to fix its actual, true problems. Not the problems that the governing elite recognizes. Riots are an expression, and they were in Hong Kong too. But the CCP did not listen.

This is a very rosy presentation of westerners that I'd go so far as to say is a lie that western people tell themselves. Where is the protection for critics of progressivism when they lose their jobs in the US for example? Where is the outcry when Europeans advocating collecting racial information during crimes get blanketly labeled racist for something that's standard practice across the world? The west has rapidly…

> it's simply social authoritarianism rather than government authoritarianism

While I agree that "social authoritarianism" is pretty shitty, I'll take it over "government authoritarianism" any day of the week (mind you, we're commenting on a story about someone being jailed for speech, not just fired).

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#268

Post by strogonoff » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:20 AM UTC

erfgh wrote: post #238

strogonoff wrote: post #132

If we are collectively incapable of making any difference in this terrible transformation, then we could do the next thing CCP will hate: do a proper study of how population’s behavior changes as it transitions from a free mentality to the oppressed state mainland’s had been in for years. This is the chance. I'm not aware of any precedents to date, but a rigorous scientific record of this kind would be extremely valu…

To do a "proper study" you should be impartial, and you're not being impartial when right out of the bat you call this "a terrible transformation".

If a scientist studying cancer calls cancer terrible in a casual conversation, they can still produce valid rigorous work about it. We'd have approximately zero research done if we disqualified everybody with a personal opinion about what they're studying. No one's unbiased, but basic science methodology helps us reveal and eliminate/compensate for our biases.

It doesn't matter whether you personally think oppressing human freedom is terrible or not—your work will not be any less useful. Its results may even challenge your own subjective opinion on the matter.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#269

Post by 082349872349872 » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:22 AM UTC

aww_dang wrote: post #89

082349872349872 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember both "islamofascism" and "weapons of mass destruction". Those were not only historical, they were even this century.

I'm not sure what that has to do with my comment. The problem with whataboutism is that even if you can establish equivalence (you haven't) it doesn't refute the underlying statement. Furthermore, in this case it may assume that I have some desire to defend the US's former middle eastern policy. It is not impossible to dislike both in varying degrees. Although it is illogical, it is an effective way to derail the dis…

It was agreeing with your comment.

As your comment points out, the current $BOOGEYMAN is probably not as strong as sold. My comment was intended to say that, with hindsight, not only have all the recent @BOOGEYMEN not been existential threats (for the US in particular, let alone "The West" in general), a recent one was even fabricated.

Rumsfeld on looting as a sign of freedom:

> "While no one condones looting, on the other hand, one can understand the pent-up feelings that may result from decades of repression and people who have had members of their family killed by that regime, for them to be taking their feelings out on that regime, ... I don't think there's anyone in any of those pictures ... [who wouldn't] accept it as part of the price of getting from a repressed regime to freedom."

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#270

Post by chloerei » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:23 AM UTC

thinkingemote wrote: post #251

chloerei wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time we discuss China's issues, some people always raise Xinjiang. The evidence presented was nothing more than the testimony of a few people and photos of unknown time and place. Chinese people who know technology can read these reports, and I can say that most of them will not believe them. Because the CCP has always promoted that 56 ethnic groups are one family. If these things happen, they will spread local…

One big family. But what if you don't want to be in the family? In the west we have that freedom to be different. We also have the freedom to say the equivalent of Bush did 9/11 : on June 4 1989 the CCP massacred thousands. Now the point of one big family is that the stability of the family, keeping everything going together peacefully means you don't rock the boat, you have to not speak out about how your uncle is a…

A family means helping each other, of course you can choose a different career and life. But you can't attract robbers to beat and smash things at home.

You think you have freedom because you know where the bottom line is. Imagine you publish a detailed crime plan. How long will the FBI come to your door?