Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law • Hacker News Board

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#271

Post by chloerei » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:27 AM UTC

ailun wrote: post #266

chloerei wrote: post #84

As a Chinese, I think it is reasonable to arrest a leader who violated the national security law. Think of a US media tycoon who went to China to meet with the Secretary of State, used the media to incite riots in his country, appeared on the streets of protest, and publicly called on China to intervene in the United States. What are the consequences of this? Please read more media from a different standpoint and thi…

There would be no consequences because we have human rights. Hong Kong used to have those, and now they’ve lost them, which is a sad thing for humanity. Further, they’ve retroactively lost them - he and many others have been arrested for things they did before the national security law was in force, and so were legal at the time in their free society. China, by arresting them ex post facto, has proven them right. You…

I don’t think you have read the National Security Law of the United States, which is broader and stricter than China...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jdp2JviTDA

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#272

Post by thinkingemote » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:28 AM UTC

chloerei wrote: post #84

As a Chinese, I think it is reasonable to arrest a leader who violated the national security law. Think of a US media tycoon who went to China to meet with the Secretary of State, used the media to incite riots in his country, appeared on the streets of protest, and publicly called on China to intervene in the United States. What are the consequences of this? Please read more media from a different standpoint and thi…

Chinese people want stability above all. Freedom of speech, the freedom to unbalance the boat is less important than stability. The story is that China has won its stability and peace through so much blood and war, anything is better than going back to those times.

In the west, we use freedoms of speech to balance the boat from one side to the other. Freedom of speech is the mechanism for stability. Freedom of speech is primarily how something is told they are wrong.

Freedoms are also why I can write: Bush destroyed the twin towers on 9 11 and killed thousands but you cannot say the CCP killed thousands on June 1989 in tiannamen square. Both events in history before many users here were even born. It's not only that it's illegal for you but censorship ensures that the boat is stable and the sea is calm. for Chinese, censorship is stability, freedom is the threat. You literally, emotionally, don't want to say those things, and you don't feel bad about it. Most westerners don't understand this. Freedom and difference to China means bloodshed and instability.

there are of course limits to freedom of speech in the west, direct calls to violence are out for example.

However encouraging protests is not encouraging violence even if the protests become violent riots later. In China protests are illegal by default because they might upset the boat potentially.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#273

Post by eie7eu3hrruur » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:30 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #267

eie7eu3hrruur wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very rosy presentation of westerners that I'd go so far as to say is a lie that western people tell themselves. Where is the protection for critics of progressivism when they lose their jobs in the US for example? Where is the outcry when Europeans advocating collecting racial information during crimes get blanketly labeled racist for something that's standard practice across the world? The west has rapidly…

> it's simply social authoritarianism rather than government authoritarianism While I agree that "social authoritarianism" is pretty shitty, I'll take it over "government authoritarianism" any day of the week (mind you, we're commenting on a story about someone being jailed for speech, not just fired).

Sometimes that social mob burns your business down and then calls you short-sighted or racist for not being supportive anymore. There's a difference sure but it's not quite as night and day as fired vs. dead.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#274

Post by ken47 » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:31 AM UTC

rorykoehler wrote: post #239

ken47 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. China was just doing its own thing in the mid-1900's. Sure it was no paradise to live in, but they were pretty much irrelevant on the world stage. Then all these multinational corporations come along, pump steroids into the Chinese economy (and by extension, the CCP) while fattening their own pockets, and after a few decades, play dumb and whine about how China hasn't been playing fair. Am I wrong on any…

Pretty spot on. Edit: if your last paragraph was relating to me I never advocated for it. Why is it you can’t say how you see things panning out without people thinking that you want it to be that way? I noticed it a lot on social media these days. For example I dislike Trump but predicted his election and was crucified for it. I was right.

I don't think we're going to go to war -- at least not in any conventional sense. But if I'm wrong, it would prove that we're little more than baboons who happen to be able to understand some advanced math.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#275

Post by JimDabell » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:32 AM UTC

simonh wrote: post #261

JimDabell wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it is immoral for Apple to do business in China, then why is it moral for Mr. Lai or anyone in Hong Kong to do business in China? Why is it moral for Jimmy Lai – who was born there, grew up there, and lives there – to do business there? Are his only moral choices to be unemployed or emigrate? He needs to be economically active somewhere and that’s his home. You don’t have to have a "partisan double standard" or…

If it's moral for those workers in China to take employment working on Apple products, I don't see why it's immoral for Apple to make the deals that create that employment. So no, I don't really see a difference. Business that especially benefits the Chinese government in particular, or that supports their oppressive activities, sure I can see that. I think Google took a principled moral stance in refusing to provide…

> If it's moral for those workers in China to take employment working on Apple products, I don't see why it's immoral for Apple to make the deals that create that employment. So no, I don't really see a difference.

One of these is an economic necessity and one is not. People generally don’t have a choice but to participate in their local economy. Apple has a choice to participate in the Chinese economy. That’s the difference.

> This smacks as a pretty partisan double standard

> I have to wonder what you have against Apple

> this sort of selective virtue posturing

Can you make your point without being insulting and accusatory? It’s possible for people to disagree about this without one side being a bad actor.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#276

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:41 AM UTC

chloerei wrote: post #84

As a Chinese, I think it is reasonable to arrest a leader who violated the national security law. Think of a US media tycoon who went to China to meet with the Secretary of State, used the media to incite riots in his country, appeared on the streets of protest, and publicly called on China to intervene in the United States. What are the consequences of this? Please read more media from a different standpoint and thi…

[deleted]

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#277

Post by ailun » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:41 AM UTC

chloerei wrote: post #271

ailun wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There would be no consequences because we have human rights. Hong Kong used to have those, and now they’ve lost them, which is a sad thing for humanity. Further, they’ve retroactively lost them - he and many others have been arrested for things they did before the national security law was in force, and so were legal at the time in their free society. China, by arresting them ex post facto, has proven them right. You…

I don’t think you have read the National Security Law of the United States, which is broader and stricter than China... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jdp2JviTDA

Guess what? I don’t agree with many of the recent infringements on constitutional rights in the US either. I can criticize my country because I’m not a blind nationalist. And the US doing something wrong doesn’t excuse what China is doing to a formerly free society.

Further, it’s impossible for anything to be more vague than the HK national security law - there must be some level of maximum vagueness and China has achieved it with this law.

Edit: I see you’ve linked Nathan Rich - what a horrible source. Why don’t you link the actual law you’re talking about?

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#278

Post by chloerei » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 10:00 AM UTC

thinkingemote wrote: post #272

chloerei wrote: post #84

As a Chinese, I think it is reasonable to arrest a leader who violated the national security law. Think of a US media tycoon who went to China to meet with the Secretary of State, used the media to incite riots in his country, appeared on the streets of protest, and publicly called on China to intervene in the United States. What are the consequences of this? Please read more media from a different standpoint and thi…

Chinese people want stability above all. Freedom of speech, the freedom to unbalance the boat is less important than stability. The story is that China has won its stability and peace through so much blood and war, anything is better than going back to those times. In the west, we use freedoms of speech to balance the boat from one side to the other. Freedom of speech is the mechanism for stability. Freedom of speech…

I think Hong Kong used to be a test field to test how the democratic system will be implemented in China. However, the experience of the past few years has shown a failure. The government's work has been unreasonably opposed by the opposition parties, and the people have been incited to riot.

Under this negative example, people in China who yearn for the American system are already ashamed to speak up. I even suspect that the purpose of Hong Kong’s opposition parties is to prevent democratization in China.

The demonstrators have a slogan "Non Separation", which means that peaceful demonstrations and violent demonstrations are not separated. They are all part of the entire movement. Peaceful demonstrators were hijacked by violent demonstrators.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#279

Post by powerapple » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 10:12 AM UTC

jeswin wrote: post #138

88840-8855 wrote: post #122

This is going to be very unpopular. History repeats itself. Just 30 years ago the Soviet Union was dissolved. If you study this dissolution process, you see that demonstrations and the ambition to sovereignty was nothing new in the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact, but in comparison to the 50s, 60s and 70s, Gorbachev did not use military force to prevent countries from splitting off. If China lets HK go independent,…

>If China lets HK go independent.. But HKers aren't even asking for full independence. They want to retain the democracy and freedom they've had so far. And the parallels with Soviet Union's collapse is debatable. At that point Soviet Union was on the brink of economic disaster, while China is at the height of their military and economic power.

I have to point out that under British rule, there was no democracy. If they want things exactly like they have before, the central government would send a governor to HK instead of having their own governor.

China wanted HK to be special and successful, to use it as a showcase for the 'one country two systems' model. Now China just want to not lose HK. Huge change in thinking.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#280

Post by ailun » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 10:17 AM UTC

chloerei wrote: post #278

thinkingemote wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese people want stability above all. Freedom of speech, the freedom to unbalance the boat is less important than stability. The story is that China has won its stability and peace through so much blood and war, anything is better than going back to those times. In the west, we use freedoms of speech to balance the boat from one side to the other. Freedom of speech is the mechanism for stability. Freedom of speech…

I think Hong Kong used to be a test field to test how the democratic system will be implemented in China. However, the experience of the past few years has shown a failure. The government's work has been unreasonably opposed by the opposition parties, and the people have been incited to riot. Under this negative example, people in China who yearn for the American system are already ashamed to speak up. I even suspect…

How was it shown a failure? Because one side didn’t get what they want? All while mainland security forces were kidnapping booksellers and trying to erode rights at every step? There was no failure of democracy in Hong Kong, the mainland was just too impatient and too power hungry.

It’s not the purpose of the opposition to prevent democratization, that’s silly. The people were not “incited to riot”, they did their best to make their voices heard. But China didn’t actually want to hear their voices. And you’ve completely fallen for the propaganda. You haven’t tried to really empathize with the people losing their freedoms. You don’t understand what a nightmare it has been for them.