The minute we do that all software engineering will be shipped off to countries that don’t require that.
Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers
241–250 of 544 posts
Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not sure hou understand how software is made. A programmer doesn't decide what to write, when to write it and they are lucky to be included in how it's made. Programmers get specs and write programs to match those. At no point is it the programmers responsibility to talk about the moral compass of the project and where it fits into society. An oath to do no harm? You first need to give programmers the power to decide…
The programmer still decides whether that code gets written, since they’re the one writing it! If you write or review a piece of software, even if the spec was written by the PM/business, you’re endorsing whatever that spec says and all of its ethical implications. “Just following orders” is a famously poor defense at this point.
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Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
It may be fine in some countries, but saying that you’ll make some organization sizes and structures illegal, barring other criminal activity, smells like a violation of the freedom of association.
Why is that a good freedom?
Because it allows people to associate with whom they choose to. Remove that and you’ve opened the gate to legal racism, legally institutionalized homophobia, banning of religion; the list is endless. The five freedoms are the pillars of our Constitution. Without them, we are no better than China or Russia or even any third-world hellhole you care to mention.
Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers
#244Doctors no longer take the Hippocratic Oath (because it is incompatible with a lot of difficult situations doctors are placed in). But more to the point: Why are we trying to shift focus from the wrongs large multi-nationals do to individual software engineers? Plus what would the result be if this "oath" conflicts with a manager's instructions? Maybe we should start with Microsoft, Google, Comcast, Oracle, and simil…
> Why are we trying to shift focus from the wrongs large multi-nationals do to individual software engineers? Because software engineers are the ones doing the actual work. By imposing an ethical standard on the people doing the real work the multinational executives then either accept that limitation or knowingly accept risks from intentionally violating the spirit of that limitation.
> accept risks from intentionally violating the spirit of that limitation.
What risk? Since it's the engineers, not the executives that take any oath of professional conduct, there wouldn't be any risk for any executive. All this would get us is a legal framework for throwing engineers under the bus via an ethical commission if they do something silly like blowing the whistle on an unethical decision higher up in the hierarchy.
I'm very much for greater personal responsibility in the field of software engineering. Until not too long ago, I used to work a in a field (medical equipment) where accepting the burden of potentially catastrophic mistakes came with the job. But I also know -- based on that same experience -- that personal accountability is meaningless without organizational ability.
Unless this hypothetical "Hippocratic Oath for engineers" is backed by a "Hippocratic Oath for executives", a "Hippocratic Oath for product managers", and "Hippocratic Oath for engineering managers", (edit: or by a legal framework that requires companies to enable it) all it'll do is reduce the PR effort involved in cleaning up a mess like Volkswagen's emission test scandal to pretty much zero by providing an exceptional -- and very mythical-sounding! -- framework for scapegoating.
Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers
#245I think I prefer the three permaculture ethical principles. They are much more condensed, more broadly applicable to any technology at any tech level, and much more holistic. These are:
1. Care of Earth
2. Care of People
3. Fair Share
They can be applied to technology as part of the whole ecology, not just human-centric. It puts life and death in the proper context of the whole, rather than the way modernity had twisted it up.
Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers
#246Most evil is conducted with the conductor being fully aware that the action is evil. An oath isn't going to stop someone who is aware they are violating social norms in the first place.
A thief knows stealing is wrong. A murderer knows killing is wrong. You don't stop thieves and murderers by making them swear hippocratic oaths.
Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers
#247Earlier quoted context omitted.
Eh, this isn't a great analogy either. If I'm an engineer that develops a single beam in a bridge, is it my fault if someone assembles those beams together in such a way that is dangerous? At which point does a function become unethical? Do you now have to only use software made in your country by ethical developers? Software isn't a bridge and comparisons fall apart quickly.
Wow, I’m realizing what an unpopular opinion this is on HN! Yes, as a software developer you should absolutely be accountable for the ethical concerns around what that protobuf you’re moving around from one API layer to the other is used for. You’re not a code monkey. Ask, and refuse if it’s unacceptable. I have quit jobs where the ultimate purpose of what I was building was evil. EDIT: Forum the original OP: > Softw…
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Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers
#248Earlier quoted context omitted.
Eh, this isn't a great analogy either. If I'm an engineer that develops a single beam in a bridge, is it my fault if someone assembles those beams together in such a way that is dangerous? At which point does a function become unethical? Do you now have to only use software made in your country by ethical developers? Software isn't a bridge and comparisons fall apart quickly.
Wow, I’m realizing what an unpopular opinion this is on HN! Yes, as a software developer you should absolutely be accountable for the ethical concerns around what that protobuf you’re moving around from one API layer to the other is used for. You’re not a code monkey. Ask, and refuse if it’s unacceptable. I have quit jobs where the ultimate purpose of what I was building was evil. EDIT: Forum the original OP: > Softw…
So the people that wrote java.util.List are liable for all unethical software that makes use of java.util.List?
Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers
#249More usefully we need something like "engineers sign off". A railway engineer is needed to sign (literally) a document saying that a new bridge or changed line is safe and reliable - and if they don't there is no getting around it by management etc.
This has lots of implications but the big one is really very few railway deaths.
Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers
#250Or we could just finally admit it: markets/buissness needs to be regulated.
And markets/businesses with a high risk of negative effects for society (and software already belongs in this category) should be strickly and proactevly regulated.