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Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

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Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#81

Post by optimiz3 »

asperous wrote: post #31
madrox wrote: post #8

I’m not a fan of comparisons to the Hippocratic oath. The greatest risk to AI ethics is not the ethics of software engineers but the ethics of the software engineering process. By the time tasks are handed to engineers, most of the ethical decisions have been made by product managers, designers, and business stakeholders who are focused on their own goals. Software engineers are accountable to their bosses before the…

I agree, however not all ethics can be legislated. This sort of thing works in other professions like medicine because malpractice can cause doctors to lose their license. Same with civil engineers. This changes things because the choice is now quitting or possibly never being able to work in the field again. Perhaps principal software engineers in charge of life or death software should be licensed for accountabilit…

Doctors don't typically have bosses directing how they treat patients; Doctors have full agency, front line grunt workers do not.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#84

Post by austincheney »

Someone1234 wrote: post #32

Doctors no longer take the Hippocratic Oath (because it is incompatible with a lot of difficult situations doctors are placed in). But more to the point: Why are we trying to shift focus from the wrongs large multi-nationals do to individual software engineers? Plus what would the result be if this "oath" conflicts with a manager's instructions? Maybe we should start with Microsoft, Google, Comcast, Oracle, and simil…

> Why are we trying to shift focus from the wrongs large multi-nationals do to individual software engineers?

Because software engineers are the ones doing the actual work. By imposing an ethical standard on the people doing the real work the multinational executives then either accept that limitation or knowingly accept risks from intentionally violating the spirit of that limitation.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#85

Post by wolco »

tfehring wrote: post #41
madrox wrote: post #8

I’m not a fan of comparisons to the Hippocratic oath. The greatest risk to AI ethics is not the ethics of software engineers but the ethics of the software engineering process. By the time tasks are handed to engineers, most of the ethical decisions have been made by product managers, designers, and business stakeholders who are focused on their own goals. Software engineers are accountable to their bosses before the…

In sufficiently complex systems, you can always blame someone else if you're motivated to do so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IssR_J0QWr4 But ultimately there's always a software engineer involved in the creation of software - and that's not true of any of the other roles you mentioned. Since software engineers are necessary and sufficient to produce software, they should always be held responsible, and any oath s…

Not sure hou understand how software is made. A programmer doesn't decide what to write, when to write it and they are lucky to be included in how it's made.

Programmers get specs and write programs to match those.

At no point is it the programmers responsibility to talk about the moral compass of the project and where it fits into society.

An oath to do no harm? You first need to give programmers the power to decide the fate of projects on their own the way only a doctor can decide medicine or treatment.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#86

Post by IvyMike »

dialamac wrote: post #62
Someone1234 wrote: post #32

Doctors no longer take the Hippocratic Oath (because it is incompatible with a lot of difficult situations doctors are placed in). But more to the point: Why are we trying to shift focus from the wrongs large multi-nationals do to individual software engineers? Plus what would the result be if this "oath" conflicts with a manager's instructions? Maybe we should start with Microsoft, Google, Comcast, Oracle, and simil…

> Doctors no longer take the Hippocratic Oath You have incorrect information. A an abridged or modernized version of the oath is still taken upon graduation of most American MD schools.

At the two ceremonies I have attended, the new MDs took this oath: https://www.hospicepatients.org/modern-physicians-oath-louis...

While it is often referred to as "The Modern Hippocratic Oath", I would argue the Lasagna oath contains significant differences from the original Hippocratic oath, and it is worth treating them as separate things.

P..S. I remember because I was like "Mmmm, Lasagna...." both times.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#87

Post by [deleted] »

Aerroon wrote: post #80
tfehring wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In sufficiently complex systems, you can always blame someone else if you're motivated to do so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IssR_J0QWr4 But ultimately there's always a software engineer involved in the creation of software - and that's not true of any of the other roles you mentioned. Since software engineers are necessary and sufficient to produce software, they should always be held responsible, and any oath s…

How about a compromise then? Software engineers are responsible for the negative consequences of the software. Any and all responsibility they take is then also shared with every person that is above them in the hierarchy. Eg a developer does something and society finds this unethical and punishes them. The developer's boss, the boss's boss, the boss's boss's boss etc up to the CEO all get punished in the same way. F…

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#88

Post by Polylactic_acid »

spunker540 wrote: post #35
batiudrami wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being expected to behave ethically is part of being an Engineer regardless of what your boss expects. Now we increasingly see real world negative consequences of the work of software engineers I don't see why they should be any different.

Is behaving ethically not a part of being a designer or a PM or a director/boss?

Ethics are subjective. Plenty of people working at facebook will tell you their work is ethical.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#89

Post by cmurf »

Someone1234 wrote: post #32

Doctors no longer take the Hippocratic Oath (because it is incompatible with a lot of difficult situations doctors are placed in). But more to the point: Why are we trying to shift focus from the wrongs large multi-nationals do to individual software engineers? Plus what would the result be if this "oath" conflicts with a manager's instructions? Maybe we should start with Microsoft, Google, Comcast, Oracle, and simil…

Build it into the corporate charter.
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