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5G Just Got Weird

spectrum.ieee.org

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Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#171

Post by Foivos »

bjelkeman-again wrote: post #156
Foivos wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is opportunistic and free for everyone to use. For a big number of use cases you need licensed spectrum to ensure some minimum standards of communication. Imagine what happens when a lot of WiFi access points are in the same small neighborhood.

> remote monitoring of water levels in wetlands and ponds spread across a few hundred square miles of mostly-rural area. But wouldn’t it work for this use case he had?

It is possible. Unlicensed technologies have their advantages as well. You should check how the trade offs of each solution manifest on your use case and pick the proper one. For example in some cases, Lowrawan has better energy consumption, thus the battery of the sensor could last longer.

I believe that in the long term and as the number of devices per unit of area increases, licensed technologies will be the only viable option.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#172

Post by andybak »

casefields wrote: post #129
andybak wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that as a crazy people vs non-crazy people thing.

And crazy people already do crazy things. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_sh...

I genuinely don't understand how that has any real connection to the topic at hand.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#173

Post by tuatoru »

swebs wrote: post #47
rsynnott wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last mile for fixed rural wireless broadband seems like the obvious one. Today, this is generally done with either LTE or various proprietary things (or if you’re particularly unlucky, satellite). 5G should allow for greater total bandwidth, reducing the impact of contention. And on the other side, it should be helpful for very dense urban usage. Try using LTE in a large city’s central train station at a busy time an…

>Try using LTE in a large city’s central train station at a busy time and see how you get on. There was some ad campaign in Helsinki about two or three years ago telling people to do just this to compare carriers. Telia, Dna, and all the others worked just fine at rush hour at the central station with 50mbps+

Ah, but Finland considers internet access a human right.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#174

Post by Spooky23 »

cromwellian wrote: post #135
thinkingkong wrote: post #11

5G doesnt seem like its enabling anything fundamentally new. The talk of any ”killer app” based on having more throughput or on these optimizations always feels like demand generation and slightly inauthentic. Are there any technologies enabled by these techniques that are not possible today?

Around 2000, I was working at OracleMobile, attened 3GPP/Mobile Congress/etc meetings, and there was a similar discussion around 3g. People were like "what's the killer app"? At the time, most phones were WML/WAP and Blackberry-like SMS/MMS/Email experiences. People speculated "maybe music or video", but it was all very vague, no one imagined the smartphone revolution that brought all of these services, like Uber. I'…

The latency sensitive thing is supposed to be smart cars and roads. 5G is all about displacing terrestrial cable and telco to homes. (And profiting off of the carve out regulations around wireless.

Most other applications don’t really care about latency. If anything, we’ve used software to move lower latency applications like voice to crowded, latent and unreliable networks.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#175

Post by partyboat1586 »

jiggawatts wrote: post #166
erulabs wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is supposed to be debunked? The main claim seems to be: > RF-EMF has been proven to be harmful for humans and the environment. Which... is true-ish? That's a bit like saying water is harmful to the environment and humans. For sure it is, if it's rushing at you with incredible velocity and mass (power). Electromagnetic radiation could certainly harm a human - with enough power. Drinking a glass of water or sendin…

Oddly, the same anti-5G people seem to have no interest in protesting against government inaction related to the unshielded nuclear reactor that causes millions of cases of cancer every year through ionising radiation. Also the same people that are the type to complain vocally about the harmful effects of 5G seem to be the type to complain just as vocally about the fine they get when they're caught texting while driv…

The common thread there is libertarianism. They don't want people imposing on them or telling them what to do. To them 5G towers are invading their space and are a symbol of an interconnectedness they would like to deny and limit.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#176

Post by Androider »

tuatoru wrote: post #157
cromwellian wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's more than that. There was no YouTube in 2000. Web video for wired connections was shitty. MPEG-2 was the codec dujour. Progressive Networks/Real Networks was people's conception of online video. Netflix was shipping DVDs by snail mail. If the iPhone existed in 2000, there still couldn't have been a TikTok. AR glasses for example, could totally upend all of this and require 5G low latency, and fast accurate p…

> AR glasses for example, could totally upend all of this and require 5G low latency 5G "low latency": I'm not impressed with "1-2 ms" first hop latency; 0.1 ms should be achievable by now, surely. AR over networks: Maybe. But I think having more compute out on the edge nodes is going to deliver more for us in the long term than faster comms. Every extra millisecond in the rendering pipeline decreases the usability o…

Carmack famously quipped that "I can send an IP packet to Europe faster than I can send a pixel to the screen" [1]. For VR and AR to break through, they're going to have to be in a form factor that resembles normal glasses, and at a much higher render quality (4K+) than anything we've got now. That's almost certainly going to require rendering remotely Stadia / Xbox Cloud style, with some minimal local processing.

[1] https://superuser.com/questions/419070/transatlantic-ping-fa....

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#177

Post by tuatoru »

limomium wrote: post #131
thinkingkong wrote: post #11

5G doesnt seem like its enabling anything fundamentally new. The talk of any ”killer app” based on having more throughput or on these optimizations always feels like demand generation and slightly inauthentic. Are there any technologies enabled by these techniques that are not possible today?

And a car is just a faster horse, but it sure changed society in fundamental ways. Often, incremental progress leads to unexpected critical mass, which opens new unimagined avenues for exploitation.

> And a car is just a faster horse

No, it's a low maintenance, low latency horse. The start-up time of cars is a few orders of magnitude faster than horses. And they can be housed in very little space and basically ignored when not needed.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#178

Post by cromwellian »

giantrobot wrote: post #155
cromwellian wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's more than that. There was no YouTube in 2000. Web video for wired connections was shitty. MPEG-2 was the codec dujour. Progressive Networks/Real Networks was people's conception of online video. Netflix was shipping DVDs by snail mail. If the iPhone existed in 2000, there still couldn't have been a TikTok. AR glasses for example, could totally upend all of this and require 5G low latency, and fast accurate p…

> Really, how useful was a 2g (Edge) iPhone without a wifi connection? Very. Lots of sites had mobile versions of pages by the iPhone's release. These were originally intended for Blazor and pocket IE but they worked fine for an iPhone on EDGE. I could do e-mail just fine on EDGE as well.

Not for me. I've owned every smartphone and high end feature phone since the 90s. A Blackberry was still better than an iPhone + IMAP + EDGE in terms of subjective speed. Mobile websites sucked hard on the iPhone. (Don't even get me started on Pocket IE and the IPAQ). Quite literally my day job was Windows CE development, I was on the W3C XHTML/CSS/XForms committees, I worked on implementation of those specs on HW before it hit the market, none of these mobile web sites were very usable except for basic text information serving. Interactions (eg clicking links, submitting forms) were agonizing.

I used to joke that slapping Gopher or a libcurses based apps on these phones would be superior (IMHO, the experience was inferior to an Amiga on a v34 modem dial to Unix)

Mobile Web apps are not really functional at EDGE speeds. And certainly todays' media, which is rich with imagery, would be completely overwhelmed at EDGE/3g speeds, even if you remove the overhead of HTML and JS bundles.

Facebook, YouTube, Spotify, all of these apps would be terrible on EDGE.

The thing is, we are so used to high bandwidth now and its availability, we seldom realize how dependent we are on it until we lose it.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#179

Post by sabas123 »

> In defining V2X for 5G, Seo says the most challenging thing was to provide high data throughput, reliability, and low latency, both of which are essential for anything beyond the most basic communications. Seo explains that earlier standards typically deal with messages with hundreds of bytes that are expected to reach 90 percent of receivers in a 300-meter radius within a few hundred milliseconds. The 3GPP standards bring those benchmarks into the realm of gigabytes per second, 99.999 percent reliability, and just a few milliseconds.

Did the previous standard lag behind or is this improvement truly this ridiculous?

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#180

Post by partyboat1586 »

arcturus17 wrote: post #150
partyboat1586 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly he doesn't. Do you?

I live in Madrid, which is a fairly clean city compared to other places I’ve lived. We have loads of roaches, especially in the summer. We also have absurd 4G and Wifi coverage. I can only connect to the 5ghz Wifi band at home because 2.4 is saturated by the neighbors. There are still roaches where I live... Funny thing, in the house where I grew up, I saw the same phenomenon as GP. We had constant roach infestations…

Better to counter an anecdote with an opposite anecdote than to downvote or shutdown. To some people being shut down proves they are right. Countering like you did provides a natural way to show the weakness of anecdotes.
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