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Bill Gates calls Microsoft’s TikTok deal a poisoned chalice

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Re: Bill Gates calls Microsoft’s TikTok deal a poisoned chalice

#41
post #13
post #3

They underlying interview is pretty amazing, mostly not about this subject: https://www.wired.com/story/bill-gates-on-covid-most-us-test...

"I personally believe government should not allow those types of lies or fraud or child pornography [to be hidden with encryption like WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger]." Disappointing to see that Bill Gates isn't concerned about the slippery slope of regulating encryption. It frankly sounds like he'd be on board with the EARN IT act. As long as we're only undermining freedom for the children or to make sure there's no…

> Disappointing to see that Bill Gates isn't concerned about the slippery slope of regulating encryption.

It's much worse than that. Over the last several years he has been increasingly arguing against encryption. People should not be charitable toward him regarding his anti-privacy, anti-encryption, pro-authoritarian position, call it what it is. He's arguing for tyranny, plain and simple.

He isn't just not concerned about the slippery slope, he's fully aware of what he is arguing for. This isn't a naive, technologically or politically oblivious person.

Re: Bill Gates calls Microsoft’s TikTok deal a poisoned chalice

#42
post #3

They underlying interview is pretty amazing, mostly not about this subject: https://www.wired.com/story/bill-gates-on-covid-most-us-test...

It's here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24100491.

Normally we'd merge the threads but most comments here are responding to the narrow title of the knockoff article.

Re: Bill Gates calls Microsoft’s TikTok deal a poisoned chalice

#45
post #13
post #3

They underlying interview is pretty amazing, mostly not about this subject: https://www.wired.com/story/bill-gates-on-covid-most-us-test...

"I personally believe government should not allow those types of lies or fraud or child pornography [to be hidden with encryption like WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger]." Disappointing to see that Bill Gates isn't concerned about the slippery slope of regulating encryption. It frankly sounds like he'd be on board with the EARN IT act. As long as we're only undermining freedom for the children or to make sure there's no…

I've met a couple of really smart people ( like CEOs), who are very good for their company + employees and have a very strong opinion about this.

They are pro security for sure, but...

Security shouldn't be abused by malicious actors. And those malicious actors shouldn't be able to hide behind encryption.

In the same sense, privacy is important but I'm not sure if it's that important in Covid times ( eg. The decentralized requirements from Europe).

In short: he's not saying security is bad. He's saying government spying isn't that bad IF the government can be trusted.

Re: Bill Gates calls Microsoft’s TikTok deal a poisoned chalice

#46
post #28
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His point is more nuanced than that, and oversimplified complex ideas virally spreading through social media is part of what he talks about. "Q: As someone who has built your life on science and logic, I’m curious what you think when you see so many people signing onto this anti-science view of the world. A: Well, strangely, I’m involved in almost everything that anti-science is fighting. I’m involved with climate ch…

I read all of what you pasted before I posted. I don't see how it changes my point at all. There's a complete disconnect between the first statement about encryption and the second. Unless Bill Gates really thinks that the vast majority of spread is through private messages. Even accepting the premise that censorship is the right approach, the vast majority of spread comes from public, unencrypted post. The connectio…

If you take the text at face value, he's making a pretty modest proposal:

(1) The current velocity of disinformation is high -> (2) this leads to socially harmful outcomes -> (3) providing P2P encryption in turnkey form via social network apps isn't a good idea.

I don't see the suggestions of panopticon you do. I see someone saying 'Most people on social media platforms aren't responsible, thoughtful enough media consumers to earn a right to encryption.'

Personally? I think it's a perspective worth considering. {Low-effort P2P encryption + low-effort forwarding} is a fundamentally different social value proposition than {Medium-effort P2P encryption + medium-effort forwarding}.

Re: Bill Gates calls Microsoft’s TikTok deal a poisoned chalice

#47
post #18
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I personally believe government should not allow those types of lies or fraud or child pornography [to be hidden with encryption like WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger]." Disappointing to see that Bill Gates isn't concerned about the slippery slope of regulating encryption. It frankly sounds like he'd be on board with the EARN IT act. As long as we're only undermining freedom for the children or to make sure there's no…

His point is more nuanced than that, and oversimplified complex ideas virally spreading through social media is part of what he talks about. "Q: As someone who has built your life on science and logic, I’m curious what you think when you see so many people signing onto this anti-science view of the world. A: Well, strangely, I’m involved in almost everything that anti-science is fighting. I’m involved with climate ch…

It seems like he's against the notion of "I disagree with what you're saying, but I will defend to the death your right to be misinformed."

Basically, if something can be proved as false information, and yet it's still allowed to spread to millions of people that unlike the average HN commenter will not do the research and end up believing the misinformation, what's the value in that? Why would we allow something that's false to spread?

This is a dilemma that creates a lot of dissonance in my mind. On one hand I support encryption, and believe that banning certain types of information on the basis of being "wrong" is a slippery slope when all of that hinges on what "wrong" means and who controls the definition of "wrong." On the other hand this kind of misinformation can cause material harm to society and innocent people who are affected by the misinformed. Without censorship or any way of shutting down this information before it reaches people who would hypothetically always believe it if they were to know of its existence, it feels like the most we can do is stand by and watch it spread. Imagine trying to convince millions of people to change their minds once they've been set for good, and that those people are now convincing your friends not to vaccinate their children, or similar.

I think what Gates is saying with regards to child pornography is that it's the only type of digital information that is prohibited to be in possession of by law. The reasoning behind this is that having child pornography distributable creates a market by which other child pornographers will have demand to keep producing more of it, which by the nature of child pornography means exploiting children. So I guess what is meant is that if you can be arrested for consuming one type of materially harmful information that provides no net value to society, why not stop other kinds of materially harmful and valueless information from spreading? There is already a status quo. Child pornography proves that there is a class of information that is so damaging to society to have publicly available that governments believe it must be outlawed (censored?) entirely.

However, child pornography different from publicly available viral videos. By its nature child exploitation doesn't spread virally online. It isn't mainstream. Viral videos on YouTube are specifically produced to reach as many people as possible, and being safe enough to exist on YouTube is pretty much necessary for this to occur. People would have to take steps to prevent child pornography from spreading to the wrong people, because of the nature of modern society where any average person would be inclined to get them arrested if they knew they were in possession of it. It is firmly ingrained in a vast majority of society that child pornography and exploitation is evil and the miniscule amount of people who believe otherwise will be endlessly shamed for their viewpoint and the shamers will never be debated on that point, because nobody generally debates things related to child pornography, and if you are discovered to like such a thing then you instantly become the scum of the Earth in almost everyone's mind who knows this fact. But those same people are happy to let harmful misinformation slide if they can't or won't understand what it actually means, information that could harm children just the same, like anti-vaccination material, but are instead marketed from the standpoint of protecting children instead of exploiting them. And if criminals are going to use encryption to hide it all, then that's how it's going to be. Encryption is just a tool. Criminals can buy knives, too.

Still, I think if we're going to allow misinformation to spread on the principle that all information should be allowed to spread, because of the fact that it's information, then we should be prepared to clean up the aftermath of the rioting later.

Re: Bill Gates calls Microsoft’s TikTok deal a poisoned chalice

#48
post #10

I do expect TikTok to lose users after Microsoft acquires it. But not because of anything Microsoft might do. TikTok just seems like a fad social network that will inevitably lose the cool factor eventually.

TikTok has become too top heavy with its current creators. Its most popular stars not only live together but have conglomerated to form their own talent agency as well.

You may not see it on your feed, but millions of middle schoolers seem to be highly invested in the drama that goes on between these people. These creators and their followers is what as known as “straight TikTok”.

What’s to stop them from demanding the big bucks from Microsoft or leaving for another platform?

Re: Bill Gates calls Microsoft’s TikTok deal a poisoned chalice

#49
post #35
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's odd that the part about hiding with encryption was added by Wired - I wonder how clear it was that that was what he meant, or that he just meant that he wanted stronger laws against lies and fraud. Although I guess that wouldn't mesh with the mention of child pornography, which already is disallowed.

It's possible the encryption part is just Wired's editorializing and not what he intended. I might be jumping to conclusions.

Or that they clarified his point with him, post-interview, after typing up and reading the transcript.

Re: Bill Gates calls Microsoft’s TikTok deal a poisoned chalice

#50
post #28
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His point is more nuanced than that, and oversimplified complex ideas virally spreading through social media is part of what he talks about. "Q: As someone who has built your life on science and logic, I’m curious what you think when you see so many people signing onto this anti-science view of the world. A: Well, strangely, I’m involved in almost everything that anti-science is fighting. I’m involved with climate ch…

I read all of what you pasted before I posted. I don't see how it changes my point at all. There's a complete disconnect between the first statement about encryption and the second. Unless Bill Gates really thinks that the vast majority of spread is through private messages. Even accepting the premise that censorship is the right approach, the vast majority of spread comes from public, unencrypted post. The connectio…

I think Gates's point has merit with WhatsApp and like, India, where the group chat mob is very very real and very dangerous [1], and since it's all E2EE, there's no easy way to monitor the proliferation of this sort of misinformation. (Though my understanding was that they put some filters in to the front-ends of the app to reduce some of the more aggressive spreading, and further reduces the number of forwards you could make.) And either way, banning E2EE isn't the answer and is a horrifying proposition for all of the slippery slope reasons we're all familiar with.

You're also absolutely right that most of the spread is just happening in the clear on normal FB or Twitter posts, and not as encrypted WhatsApp messages.

I think that FB has a moral imperative to significantly reduce the easy of sharing, frankly. It's a single click to commit a share/forward that passes along misinformation instantly with no effort on the part of the sharer. It should require _some_ effort: having to create your own post, for instance. It would dramatically slow the viral-spread-like-wildfire aspect of the most egregious pieces of viral misinformation: where people simply see a salacious headline that confirms their biases or aligns with their views and mindlessly clicks share.

That is addressable by reducing the patterns meant to increase viral spread, which admittedly is a huge part of what lead to Facebook's success, but it's now causing far more harm than good.

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