Live data from Hacker News

Stopping deepfake news with an AI algorithm that can tell when a face doesnt fit

spie.org

41–50 of 105 posts

Re: Stopping deepfake news with an AI algorithm that can tell when a face doesnt fit

#41
Deepfakes are generated by a generative adversarial network.

There are two networks: a generator, and a discriminator.

The generator generates a result, the discriminator evaluates that result.

This AI that detect fakes faces could be used to train the discriminator so that the GAN generates even better results.

Re: Stopping deepfake news with an AI algorithm that can tell when a face doesnt fit

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think religion might have proved that people will believe whatever they want to first. The book Sapiens really opened my eyes to people.

Well it took me 35 years but I escaped religion despite being indoctrinated from a young age. And leaving was a difficult choice but education and evidence were the keys that freed me. Piercing cognitive biases is hard, maybe harder if those most in need feel forced.

I could have clarified more- I’m saying that even with these sort of deep fakes that breaking people out might be just as hard. Especially if objective proof becomes “malleable” similar to how religion can lack objective proof, manipulating people in a new way means we need methods.

Re: Stopping deepfake news with an AI algorithm that can tell when a face doesnt fit

#43
I find all this concern a little bit overblown. Yes, it is a problem that we can make extremely convincing fakes, but we've had fakes that can fool non-experts for a very long time. The Soviet Union doctored a great many photographs in a way invisible to me (examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_So...). Why are we more concerned about this fakery than about airbrushing?

The solution is the same as it's always been: stick to trustworthy sources and insist that all evidence is traced and corroborated. It remains easy to learn the truth as long as you make a good faith effort to do so. In the worst case we can just stop trusting photographs altogether. We got by just fine before the camera was invented; we can do fine after it becomes obsolete.

Re: Stopping deepfake news with an AI algorithm that can tell when a face doesnt fit

#44
post #40

Maybe advanced DRMs will be a way forward ? Have camera fingerprint / sign the video, and then every editing videos fingerprint & sign the changes performed, and send everything to a ledger ? Only way to make sure a video is actually coming from the real world...

We don’t need this for photographs. Why do we need it for video?

Re: Stopping deepfake news with an AI algorithm that can tell when a face doesnt fit

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it took me 35 years but I escaped religion despite being indoctrinated from a young age. And leaving was a difficult choice but education and evidence were the keys that freed me. Piercing cognitive biases is hard, maybe harder if those most in need feel forced.

I could have clarified more- I’m saying that even with these sort of deep fakes that breaking people out might be just as hard. Especially if objective proof becomes “malleable” similar to how religion can lack objective proof, manipulating people in a new way means we need methods.

Your point seemed clear enough to me. Perhaps my response drifted too far. I see education as a common solution to the "it's all relative" and "no one can know for sure" shortcuts some people take to hold on to what's more comfortable to believe.

And just as religion may often teach people to turn off their critical thinking skills they can be taught to use them again. And human brains evolved to recognize unhealthy or unnatural facial imagery for millennium. So unmasking the more successful techniques may be enough to break us out of the "anything can be fake" malaise.

Re: Stopping deepfake news with an AI algorithm that can tell when a face doesnt fit

#46
post #16

The problem will increasingly be "whose algorithm do we believe". Internet has revealed that people believe mostly what they want to. We have seen that a large subset of people are believing Bill Gates is behind the pandemic. Why would masses somehow be more rational in picking the most rigorous and objective neural network to recognize deepfakes, than they are in making sense of the world in general? In the end we w…

I think religion might have proved that people will believe whatever they want to first. The book Sapiens really opened my eyes to people.

This is a very low-resolution understanding of what a religion is. It has much more depth to it. (The writer of Sapiens actively tries to ignore this by reducing every single belief humans have (including religions) to random meme propagation.)

Re: Stopping deepfake news with an AI algorithm that can tell when a face doesnt fit

#47
post #19
post #16

The problem will increasingly be "whose algorithm do we believe". Internet has revealed that people believe mostly what they want to. We have seen that a large subset of people are believing Bill Gates is behind the pandemic. Why would masses somehow be more rational in picking the most rigorous and objective neural network to recognize deepfakes, than they are in making sense of the world in general? In the end we w…

Because YouTube, Facebook will flag these videos before they become too widespread.

"I trust Google and FB, and I would like them to decide what is true or not for me instead of deciding myself"

Re: Stopping deepfake news with an AI algorithm that can tell when a face doesnt fit

#48
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't digital signatures the best solution we have for this problem? Commercial entities want to have the priviledge of being able to modify the content submitted by content creators, but the culture of trusting i.e. Twitter over client verification needs to change.

Digital signatures would only match of the contents match bit for bit. This means that you can't recompress/remux/resize the video. This will probably provide a very poor ux for mobile or other bandwidth limited users. Also, if the video was used as part of another video (eg. TV broadcast), you'd either have to splice the digitally signed video into your existing stream (not modifying the bits at all), or provide the…

Fingerprinting can take care of the recompression problems.

Remuxing is a hard problem, as it can easily take people out of context, at the same time it's very important to summarize the videos, as people have limited time.

Right now what I see though is that Facebook/Google/Twitter aren't even trying to do the bare minimum end-to-end authentication that Whatsapp/Telegram/Signal already does (create a private key on the end devices, and sign the content to verify the authenticity of the publisher).

Requiring HTTPS was a great first step for tech companies to protect people and from ISPs. But they do nothing to protect people from themselves being compromised (the Twitter incident was a great proof for this).

Re: Stopping deepfake news with an AI algorithm that can tell when a face doesnt fit

#49
Hey, we all know that this will not be the end of deep fakes. It will just another channel of information to think about. Now we have to care about whether this algorithm is correct, or maybe it is also manipulated by the other political party to claim that the others' picture is fake...

But it had to be created at some point, it had to exist. This is just an inevitable next step of the progress.

Re: Stopping deepfake news with an AI algorithm that can tell when a face doesnt fit

#50

AI novice here. It would seem to me that the detection algorithm can be repurposed into making the original less detectable. A recursion that never ends. An advantage quickly becomes disadvantage. Worse. All information - even facts and truth - has been subverted. What happens when there is no trust? Is this not a road to the New Darker Ages?

That's what I'm thinking. I don't want to diminish the value of this research, but this cat-and-mouse game is like a GAN[0] with extra steps.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generative_adversarial_network

Post reply on HN