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Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

theguardian.com

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Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#91
post #61

I'm right now in a Norwegian plane to come back from France to Norway. There is a quarantine since midnight, which is a good thing. There is a reason that France and Norway do not have the same numbers, French people are pretty bad at taking the covid19 measures seriously. I'm not thinking about the government but the population in general. It's a bit frustrating because it's not very difficult to be careful. I have…

Wow. Just wow. You claim French people aren't taking covid measures seriously, yet you are behaving as a potential human carrier of the virus by travelling abroad. And you have the nerve to complain about people coughing on the plane...

Please keep the online shaming/callout culture off HN. I know it feels justified in individual cases, but it adds up to a tragedy of the commons effect in the end. A massive one.

https://hn.algolia.com/?query=online%20shaming%20by%3Adang&s...

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* Aerosol COVID risk is basically proven, but we don't know if it is a major mode of spread. It does seem to be related to superspreader events. * Deployment of air purifiers would be a trivial expense relative to any other economic harms of COVID19. It's mostly a question of policy catching up to science. * Large droplets are a confirmed major source of spread. Cloth masks help reduce those. They're not full-proof e…

Cloth masks do a better job at preventing you from spreading COVID than they do of preventing you from catching COVID. In small confined spaces I would not want to depend on 100% mask compliance by all people to keep me safe, and I’d want a N95.

In a large, unconfined space, I would also not want to rely just on masks. It's a public health issue. If I've reduced the odds of catching COVID19 by even, say, 30%, that's an incredible impact on how much COVID19 spreads, for the cost of a $5 mask and a minor inconvenience.

The trick is to get R0 under 1, so we have exponential decline rather than exponential growth. Even if it's above 1, if we can bring the exponent down, it's huge. There's no sane argument that masks don't do that.

You might want an N95, and I might want one too, but there aren't enough to go around. For the most part, easiest thing to do is to not go out in public.

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#93
post #84
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we should also strive not to cherry-pick what kind of discrimination to report just because a specific country is good at crying racism. The discrimination against Asians (as people tend to assume any Asian they see is from China) was heavily reported and condemned by the press. Meanwhile discrimination against other groups of people (which has been far worse for e.g. foreigners staying in China) has been largely…

Oh so that explains huge rise in anti asian racism? Like when people beat up Malaysians or Koreans because they look Chinese? FFS what is wrong with you racists?

There’s to my knowledge only been an increased anti-China sentiment, which is understandable since they’ve become the nazis of our century.

I don’t support anyone getting beaten up no matter what crimes they’ve committed, but I do support isolating China from the rest of the world until we see a positive regime change.

The racism towards Asians in general is overblown. I highly doubt that Malaysians, Koreans, etc. abroad have seen an increase in physical assaults compared to white/black people. If there has been for Chinese people then it’s also important to consider that they in democratic countries went out to have anti-democracy protests (and the Chinese were often very aggressive during these anti-democracy protests).

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#94

Thoughts: Aerosol covid risk is highly likely, meaning that air travel requires N95 masks and goggles (eyes are a known vector). If you are outdoors, dilution of virions happens quickly, especially in windy conditions. UV helps denature RNA quickly as well. Indoor risk can be greatly mitigated with room air purifiers, but they have not been deployed because the WHO hasn’t acted on aerosol risk. (albeit, the deploymen…

Agreed that air travel would seem to be high-risk given airborn transmission.... but why aren't we seeing it? Seems like the easiest transmission to trace -- someone takes a plane, tests positive, contact everyone who was on the same plane. But I haven't seen a documented case over the last five months of "one person a plane infects 20 others..." It confounds my mental model of how this virus is spread. Any idea what…

I think aircraft ventilation is designed so you have laminar flow from the ceiling to the floor. And the air filtered. Consider that people used to smoke on planes.

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#95
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, being refused service at a restaurant even though you never left the country you are residing in is xenophobia.

And now it's when you link an article with three embedded tweets of people who say that's happened to them?

It happened to people I know. That’s good enough for me. I still have lots of friends back in Beijing (Chinese, LHFs, and expats). It just isn’t a fun time to be a foreigner in China.

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#96
post #69
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When death rates are measured based on outcomes, as in one either recovers, or is dead, the risk is 3 to 7 percent depending on where you are in the world. (Dead people)/(recovered people) = (death rate) Doing the math based on infection ignores the fact that many cases are in progress, outcome unknown. This makes for much smaller numbers, and a less realistic risk perception based on lack of data for the scope of ri…

Calculating “death rate” with a denominator of “recovered people” is simply lying with data: of all of the covid metrics, “recovered people” is the least well reported. Of the millions and millions of people who have now had this virus and recovered without incident, only a small fraction have seen the inside of a medical facility. Only a tiny fraction of those have had “recovery” reported, and even when it is report…

Let's coin toss 100 times.

Let's put 'em in orbit and assume they survive reentry and land where we can evaluate heads or tails, so we have some flight time in this analogy.

Just for shits and giggles.

It takes a coin anywhere from two weeks to a month to land.

We have tossed all 100 coins, 25 per week over the course of a month.

Our stats could look like this.

Tossed coins = 100 Landed coins = 50 Tail landings = 4

To make it a bit more interesting, we could also say we are tossing 25 new coins per week right now, and that could change up, or down.

New coin tosses this week = 25

Right now, we know the outcome for 50 coins, and 4 of them landed tails.

(4/50) = 8 percent tails rate

We know at least 50 coins are in flight, outcome unknown.

It could be that every other coin toss lands heads. We could also say, there are no more tosses to consider. So let us add the 25 new tosses this week too.

(4/125) = 3.2 percent tails rate. This would be the best case.

It could also be every other coin lands tails too.

(54/100) = 54 percent! That is the worst possible case.

In reality, for this example, we know there are more tosses coming and we also could model poor testing and say we are not aware of all the tosses.

Some error factor could be computed to refine best and worst case too.

The better we are at collecting data, the more those outcomes will tell us.

The more time that passes, the more outcomes will tell us.

We may find tosses at night double risk of landing tails, for example.

Or maybe coins tossed mid week land tails consistently.

Ignoring that which has not come to conclusion biases the risk assessment toward lower risk with a larger error.

Low numbers with high error rates are not all that useful in this context.

Current global stats are:

Coronavirus Cases: 19,725,865

Deaths: 727,548

Recovered: 12,660,022

That's 5.7 percent deaths overall known outcomes with 7,065,865 cases in progress right now.

If people test positive, don't end up in the hospital and we have no death certs filed, they are recovered, but may be harmed in some way. Poor data on that.

Otherwise, we know they died.

Some argue a percentage of those deaths are with COVID causing a death due to other factors.

You can bias that overall 5.7 percent number up or down based on your own personal risk assessment, but dead is still dead, and catching the virus only adds to ones risk. These all count for purposes of policy and understanding danger.

I know at least one person who did that low risk assessment, went to a State with high case load and who has been on a ventilator for a month now.

They may live, and that looks increasingly likely, but will definitely not be the same after it is all said and done.

"I am unlikely to die" carries greater weight in that light, yes?

All I am really saying here is people would be wise to treat this with more respect than we may otherwise feel is warranted.

The basic reasons are simple ignorance (we are doing the science and it takes time) and lack of effective medicine at this time.

Both of those warrant the more firm, lower error numbers we get from actual outcomes.

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#98
post #91
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Just wow. You claim French people aren't taking covid measures seriously, yet you are behaving as a potential human carrier of the virus by travelling abroad. And you have the nerve to complain about people coughing on the plane...

Please keep the online shaming/callout culture off HN. I know it feels justified in individual cases, but it adds up to a tragedy of the commons effect in the end. A massive one. https://hn.algolia.com/?query=online%20shaming%20by%3Adang&s... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

speedgoose was doing it to an entire country, but tedk-42 is the one who gets reprimanded?

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#99
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please keep the online shaming/callout culture off HN. I know it feels justified in individual cases, but it adds up to a tragedy of the commons effect in the end. A massive one. https://hn.algolia.com/?query=online%20shaming%20by%3Adang&s... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

speedgoose was doing it to an entire country, but tedk-42 is the one who gets reprimanded?

We seem to be talking about different things.

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#100
post #68
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Just wow. You claim French people aren't taking covid measures seriously, yet you are behaving as a potential human carrier of the virus by travelling abroad. And you have the nerve to complain about people coughing on the plane...

If you talk to Norwegians about Norwegians, you'll discover that we're very good at patting ourselves on the back. You might say that we're one of the best countries in the world when it comes to patting ourselves on the back.

True I think.

But remember that Norwegians also have maybe the worlds largest inferiority complex ;-)

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