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Why is this idiot running my engineering org?

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Re: Why is this idiot running my engineering org?

#161

The article starts with "This is one of my favorite USDS stories:" Such a hassle when authors just assume everybody is also in their bubble and know all thr acronyms. I'm not in or from the U.S. I have no clue what USDS is. Bad start to introduce me to your article.

> Such a hassle when authors just assume everybody is also in their bubble and know all thr acronyms

Yes, totally agree.

And for those who say 'well you got Google don't you?' or similar, my searches found United States Department of State and United States Digital Service. Both of these seem plausible but who knows.

Re: Why is this idiot running my engineering org?

#162
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do people still use the term white supremacists to imply some nefarious group? The term has lost all value and is now used in mainstream best selling books and media to describe every white person. What is an example of mainstream best selling books or media that use it that way? (I mean which specifically, not just in the sense of "it feels that it's used so much that it might as well mean that.") I'd argue, e…

White fragility applies the term so broadly that it implies the author herself is a white supremecist.

Based on a quick search through it, White Fragility mostly but not completely avoids the term "white supremacist" (as applied to people), instead using "white supremacy" or "white supremacist culture". In that context, she says:

> White supremacy in this context does not refer to individual white people and their individual intentions or actions but to an overarching political, economic, and social system of domination.

Note the specific disclaimer about not so referring to individuals. In this context, it is true that much of the world is part of a white supremacist culture. As the author says:

> … within a white supremacist society, I am rewarded for not interrupting racism and punished in a range of ways—big and small—when I do.

Pointing this out does not, I think, dilute the term; it rather insists on confronting the fact that "but I'm not racist" is not a sufficient response to claims of systemic racism.

(The author does use the phrases "explicit white supremacists" and "avowed white supremacists", thus referring to individuals; but, as far as I can tell, she does not define the term, and I think that it is clear that she means by this to separate out people with overt white supremacist ideas from those of us who are merely a part of the culture—a clarification, rather than a dilution.)

Re: Why is this idiot running my engineering org?

#163

Sorry, the story totally lost me after she was describing the interaction with the FBI. I did not easily take away some conclusion about what she had done wrong or what deep pile of shit she had just created for herself, or what on 2 paths she had just chosen incorrectly, or daringly? (The paragraph ending, "I trusted the FBI to be good at their jobs." The next paragraph jumps right to generalizations, and I didn't c…

I think she's saying that it's odd to her, as someone who innately enjoys doing highly consequential work, that other people don't share in her enthusiasm. Similarly, coworkers must find it odd that she doesn't actively dodge such work or deal with it in a robotic, CYA manner, devoid of enthusiasm. Her realization about them and their realization about her are asymmetric in consequence. Even if she judges them it won…

Can confirm, this is a vivid picture of the US government contracting landscape.

Re: Why is this idiot running my engineering org?

#165
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always lawyer up. As we’ve learned in the last few years, the FBI loves to catch people “lying” to agents as a precursor to persecuting them for political reasons.

I love how commenters on HN and elsewhere often make the blithe recommendation to "lawyer up" as if normal people can just speed dial some white-shoe senior partner and get them on a $10k/m retainer stat . Unless you are sitting on some real family wealth this idea that you can just "lawyer up" against the friggin' FBI is just laughable. Might as well advise people to "always call the president and get him on side".…

There’s a great, cheaper alternative to lawyering up when your participation is optional: don’t participate and don’t discuss anything.

Re: Why is this idiot running my engineering org?

#166
post #69
post #64

Speaking of USDS, how come in August of 2020 we _still_ don't have a government COVID19 website that doesn't suck? One that's trustworthy, that has accurate data, and decent statistical analysis. Maybe you guys should look into doing your jobs instead of "fighting white supremacists" on taxpayer dime?

> Maybe you guys should look into doing your jobs instead of "fighting white supremacists" on taxpayer dime? Wait a moment, you can argue about whose purview exactly this is, but are you saying that fighting white supremacists isn't a good use of taxpayer dollars? It's certainly a cause to which I'd be happy to know my taxes were going.

We already pay for law enforcement and the judicial branch. USDS should be handling technology problems (which US government has a ton of), not be political vigilantes on my dime.

Re: Why is this idiot running my engineering org?

#167
post #166
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe you guys should look into doing your jobs instead of "fighting white supremacists" on taxpayer dime? Wait a moment, you can argue about whose purview exactly this is, but are you saying that fighting white supremacists isn't a good use of taxpayer dollars? It's certainly a cause to which I'd be happy to know my taxes were going.

We already pay for law enforcement and the judicial branch. USDS should be handling technology problems (which US government has a ton of), not be political vigilantes on my dime.

> We already pay for law enforcement and the judicial branch. USDS should be handling technology problems (which US government has a ton of), not be political vigilantes on my dime.

Ah, yes, that was the argument that I hoped you were making—based on purview (these people aren't in the business of fighting white supremacists), not on whether fighting white supremacists is itself a good idea. Note that, initially, the white supremacism was irrelevant—the issue was just that a government website (which definitely does fall under the purview of USDS) was expected to come under attack—and that, to the extent that it was relevant, this USDS employee immediately reached out to the FBI, whose job this definitely should be. The article gives no indication that any more USDS resources were spent on this than the author's being interviewed by the FBI.

Re: Why is this idiot running my engineering org?

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find anything unique here that I don't see at big companies, it's just handled more deftly.

Difference is big corps sometimes get reorganized or their cash cow falls on hard times and they need to optimise or perish. They don't succeed often but the incentives are usually profit driven - politics are a luxury that big corps can afford to absorb because they are usually entrenched in some position and can afford to accumulate inefficiency. Government on the other hand is always political as their output isn'…

There's a finite budget in any company, even those flush with cash. Tech companies still have all the same politics as the size increases.

Re: Why is this idiot running my engineering org?

#169
post #20

Fucking amazing. This was sitting right under my nose my entire life and I sensed it but didn't understand it. Now somebody finally wrote it down. I consider myself pretty courageous or at least indifferent to consequences (which may or may not be the same thing), but yeah that always seems to be the missing or limiting ingredient in every situation. Not that I'm biased or anything! Anyway this is going to be one of…

Maybe that's because you were enveloped in it. It's equally hard to see how weird your culture could look to others, until you actually visit some of those others and watch them operate, think it's weird, and then realise the feeling is probably reciprocal. For me a case in point was how a society could function without being very proscriptive, because where I live (Australia) where everything is that way. You will occasionally see people say Australia is a nanny state because the way we are expected to behave is often written down, and often policed.

One way that stands out is road rules. The French tourism operators have cottoned onto this, and plonk us ozzies by the bus load in front of the Arc de Triomphe for 1/2 an hour. And we just sit there memorised, unable to tear our eyes away. The fact that any OECD country would operate like this defies our preconceptions. The fact that such uncontrolled chaos actually works defies belief, it's like we've visited a different Universe.

And so it is with workplaces. I worked in a series of companies where the operating assumption was that if you weren't trying new things and failing occasionally, you weren't trying hard enough. (Actually, a more reasonable description of the expectation is you must be racking up successes at a reasonable rate. But as everyone knows you can't rack up successes without failing occasionally.) It's been that way for my entire working life.

Until a year ago that is, when I the company worked for was purchased. And then it was like I was in France, watching the Arc de Triomphe. The decisions seemed inexplicable, the words used to justify them like "enterprise grade" were literally meaningless to me. I went through denial, thinking a much bigger and clear successful company couldn't operate in ways much different to what I learned worked over the course of decades. Then confusion, after acknowledging it clearly did operate on different rules, and those rules must somehow be understandable to all the players, except me, apparently. And then, finally, a month or two ago the oh shit moment, "this isn't about the best decision for the corporation, it's about minimising personal responsibility and risk". Just like the article says. How unoriginal that thought turned out to be. Unlike you I was oil watching water make its way into my world. It wasn't my unchallenged normal. It was in my face, sudden, and painful. In that situation I could not be a slow boiled frog; this thing demanded an explanation.

After that moment of clarity, understanding the games being played was much easier. Approaching a problem with "I'll see what I can do without bothering too many people. Experiment a little, try 3, and ask the users I inflicted in what worked out best" is utterly untenable. Firstly, I've actually chosen something without consulting _all_ the stakeholders first (or wasting their time in fk'ing endless meetings). Heaven forbid - that would mean I'm clearly responsible for the outcome. I can't palm it off as "the committee" made the decision, or cast the decision as a shared responsibility. This choice to spend the time, effort and expense is all on me. Then there's the little matter of 2 out of the 3 experiments could be painted as failures by enemies. And finally, by actually letting others way in on which experiment was best, how on earth could I justify my "the decider man who gets paid the big bucks" position. In this process I'm little more than the bunny doing the leg work. Project must be my idea, with all the decisions for the good outcomes owned by me.

No, the way this must work is hours of meetings speaking in tongues. Hidden criticisms, white anting the existing setup, but nothing overtly back stabby like "this is shit - it's costing us money". The initial task is to create the politics for change while minimising the risk to me by keeping a small profile, then once the winds for change are strong I can sail in with the magic bullet and vanquish the remaining naysayers.

But this magic bullet can't be created by me - that would make me unquestionably responsible for the outcome. No, there must be wriggle room. It must be something purchased from outside, someone to share the burden of responsibility. That has several advantages.

Firstly, I don't have to sell it. The vendor has a well oiled sales team that gives me all the materials I need. Brochures, slick rehearsed demos where nothing goes wrong, written guarantees with SLA's no less (that offer to refund the $10 you have paid for the service was down for the day and stopped 50 people working). As I have recently discovered that well oiled sales team will be happy to be my mercenaries, using their connections (they are sales after all) to have quiet words here and there. (Strangely, it hadn't occurred to me that this would happen in the corporate world.)

To add to the air of enterprise grade it can't be cheap either - I don't want to be responsible for risking a few bucks for years by using a fly by nighter. No, if this company fails, no one could have seen it coming, certainly not me. It's irrelevant that it's a commodity like an internet link I could get from anywhere if my el-cheapo failed, as it's the failure in my choice of vendor (because it was undeniably solely my choice!) that reflects on me.

The second advantage is if it has hairs, that's the clients fault for not seeing through the demo's. We showed them what they were getting after all. And better yet, I can't fix the hairs, so I can't accumulate responsibility for fixes that don't work. The specification for those fixes must come from the client, and of course they bear full responsibility. I just sign the cheques. In fact I can probably avoid paying for the fixes out of my budget.

The third advantage is it came with a big legal document, so if all turns to shit we have recourse, and perusing that isn't my job - it's legals. Never mind the cost or perusing it is prohibitive. Never mind the vendor's legal team had years of time to fill it with more holes than swiss cheese, whereas I demanded an answer from our legal team in a week. The failure to obtain recourse can't be mine - I did a perfectly good job in getting the paperwork signed. Legal said so, and now it’s their job to see it through.

I reckon I could play the game now, if I could bring myself to do it. The problem is unlike the Arc de Triomphe, I see how it would work in anyone's favour, except mine. But I guess if I can't see that's what matters most, I'm missing the point entirely.

Right now I’m not playing it, and as the article says those who don’t play by those rules are treated as a threat. That’s a new development. To see it written on hacker news as truism when I’ve just learnt it after being in the workforce for decades is more than a little unsettling. I even didn’t notice it was happening a few weeks ago. I was probably just too wet behind the ears to notice, but in addition now we’ve outright rejected their “enterprise grade” solutions for something that is cheaper and clearly gives better service, and worse we have done it twice, in quick succession.

Now reputations are on the line and the game is on. My supreme confidence they are indeed a bunch of idiots naturally makes me believe if this is allowed to continue there is only one possible outcome - the accumulated successes will be noticed and the failed experiments eventually forgotten as that has always panned out. That is surely my hubris speaking; hardly something that could be taken seriously. But still too many successes could undermine authority, and risk personal reputations. Risks can’t be tolerated.

I’ll concede the outcome of this type of stoush would usually be a foregone conclusion, the big company culture will always squash the new acquisition. But in this particular case the big company wasn’t doing so well, the newish CEO recognised he had a bureaucracy problem and bought us to shake things up. So there’s hope. Maybe.

Re: Why is this idiot running my engineering org?

#170
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The missing piece of the puzzle >the software was compromised by domestic terrorists and the threat was real The missing piece to me is that she says, specifically, that it was under attack by white supremacists. If you know anything about WS types, they are profoundly anti-intellectual. Anyone who has the technical chops to compromise software would almost certainly be labeled a secret jew/antifa/etc. Frankly I fin…

We have literal 17 year olds hacking the twitter account of Obama and a ton of other high profile people. How can you possibly believe that a bunch of white supremacists are not a threat? You need only one marginally competent one to wreck your entire platform.

>You need only one marginally competent one to wreck your entire platform.

Yes exactly. Ultimately security is deeply involved with threat modeling. It is likely that the author's boss did not prioritize her pet security issues because they were a low risk in the threat model.

>How can you possibly believe that a bunch of white supremacists are not a threat?

Domain expertise. Frankly I am somewhat surprised that people with what is apparent to be a television soap opera level of understanding of american dissident activity make public posts on the topic with the confidence they do on here. Not you, of course, but others.

Unfortunately, the most believable interpretation of this story is very boring office politics: Our author, having failed to make a case to her boss, drummed up some internet post in an attempt to get her way. We've all known people like this... they have varying amounts of self-awareness. It is characteristic of such actors to manufacture exactly the sort of attack they imagine to be the most relevant. This is likely to be such a case. What gives her away is that this is some fantastical story that makes sense only in pop culture: if there is even one WS cyber attack on an american federal platform for every 10,000 chinese attacks I will eat my hat and livestream it. These are simply not people with competence in the field of cyber security.

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