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Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

nytimes.com

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Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#91

Post by ghthor »

shadowgovt wrote: post #61
Threeve303 wrote: post #19

Abolishing the police combined with the protests (or riots) and the move against the NRA creates a very uncomfortable environment for probably half of the United States. All in an election year no less. Does no one remember 2000,2004 and 2016? Perhaps the DNC could write a book called “How to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory”

But it's an uncomfortable environment happening on the incumbent's watch. That doesn't say much positive about the incumbent's ability to lead, and suggests new leadership is in order.

Yes, we need some strong Republican for the people mayors and governors to replace these weak democratic wannabe leaders.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#92

Post by GaryNumanVevo »

Tycho wrote: post #79

We can split hairs about 'defunding' vs 'abolishing', but I just get the distinct impression that many people have got no real idea about the threat that crime poses to the prosperity of a community (or city or state), and the effort that is required to keep it in check. The occasional misbehaviour of police officers is a small price to pay compared to the oppression and privation wrought by widespread crime.

Funding a massive police force to curb what essential amounts to socioeconomic issues is highly inefficient. Putting that funding towards building better communities, alleviating the factors associated with crime directly, rather than just trying to patch it by putting public workers in danger.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#93

Post by adjkant »

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #90
adjkant wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where have bail laws caused any issue in NY? As a resident I haven't encountered any such issues. I wouldn't call "abandoning a neighborhood" a minor change either. It seems clear to me it's very much a calculated political move to do that so people can do exactly what you did - point and say "well we need police, look what happened without them". This should have no bearing on reform laws and abolition steps.

The article below provides a summary of the discussion on the NY bail law impact: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/04/nyregion/crime-stats-nyc-...

That's based on one month (January 2020) with clear political motivations directly discussed by NYT in the article If you look at NYC crime YTD, it's down 3% [1]. I don't see how thats a drastic or even minor change to public safety.

Per your own link:

> "Law enforcement experts say crime statistics can rise or fall in any given month for numerous reasons and explain that it is far more important to track trends over longer periods of time."

One month just isn't representative of if a policy worked or not. Take March 2020 [2]. Crime down overall, including for assaults, something the NYPD blamed the bail law on in January. I specifically cherry-picked March on purpose - you can see if you look around that months go up and down. I'm not saying it's an open and shut case in either direction, but there's no macro rise as again evidenced on the YTD stats in the first source.

[1] https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statist...

[2] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/p0402b/nypd-citywide-cri...

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#94

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

adjkant wrote: post #93
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article below provides a summary of the discussion on the NY bail law impact: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/04/nyregion/crime-stats-nyc-...

That's based on one month (January 2020) with clear political motivations directly discussed by NYT in the article If you look at NYC crime YTD, it's down 3% [1]. I don't see how thats a drastic or even minor change to public safety. Per your own link: > "Law enforcement experts say crime statistics can rise or fall in any given month for numerous reasons and explain that it is far more important to track trends over…

Hey; I'm just providing a source that talks about it - I don't have a dog in this fight.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#95

Post by adjkant »

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #94
adjkant wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's based on one month (January 2020) with clear political motivations directly discussed by NYT in the article If you look at NYC crime YTD, it's down 3% [1]. I don't see how thats a drastic or even minor change to public safety. Per your own link: > "Law enforcement experts say crime statistics can rise or fall in any given month for numerous reasons and explain that it is far more important to track trends over…

Hey; I'm just providing a source that talks about it - I don't have a dog in this fight.

Didn't mean to come off as attacking, sorry :)

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#96

Post by john-shaffer »

dorian-graph wrote: post #6

> “Seattle’s unprecedented decision to abandon and close off an entire city neighborhood, leaving it unchecked by the police, unserved by fire and emergency health services, and inaccessible to the public” Is this what people advocating for abolish the police are advocating for? Removal of health services? Isn't it literally the opposite, to have more and more varied health (and social) services, that people are advo…

> "Abolish the police" is a scale where there is an extreme end where they may call for completely removing police from across the USA. From what I've seen, that isn't what the majority who are calling for abolishment are aiming for. Maybe "abolish" was a poor choice of a word.

It's not "Abolish the police" by itself. The same people also say "All Cops Are Bastards" and "Policing is a racist institution". It would be unreasonable to take these words as supporting anything other than doing away with police entirely.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#97

Post by john-shaffer »

hevelvarik wrote: post #55

This is rich. The comments are largely in favor of diminishing police funding presumably to protect black people whereas black people want nothing of the sort https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/81-black-ameri... Truly bizarre

Just FYI, you're likely to get downvoted for posting an AMP link. It's generally best to link directly to the source.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#98

Post by shadowgovt »

basch wrote: post #86
shadowgovt wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect we're well past the time of convincing and into the time of doing.

In the 7 or 8 swing states that matter, you think the election is already decided in each of them? I would expect a bunch more defectors if the economy is still in ruin by then, and a bunch of 'moderates' who end up deciding based on how recent foreign policy turns out. Remember, most people are single issue voters. The rest of everything he does, doesnt matter.

Possibly, but this administration has been so polarizing that at this point, I think it's a lot more about getting like-minded people out of their chairs and to the polls than it is finding more like-minded people.

It's been year after year of polarizing decisions and rhetoric. At this point, basically everyone's dug in on how they feel about this direction for America.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#99

Post by [deleted] »

laichzeit0 wrote: post #48
dorian-graph wrote: post #6

> “Seattle’s unprecedented decision to abandon and close off an entire city neighborhood, leaving it unchecked by the police, unserved by fire and emergency health services, and inaccessible to the public” Is this what people advocating for abolish the police are advocating for? Removal of health services? Isn't it literally the opposite, to have more and more varied health (and social) services, that people are advo…

Why should an ambulance driver have to respond to a call in a dangerous neighborhood without a police escort? I wouldn’t. Fuck that, you don’t want police, good luck.

[deleted]

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#100

Post by spaetzleesser »

moomin wrote: post #44
spaetzleesser wrote: post #3

I really hate that in typical US manner this issue gets pushed to the extreme so in the end a reasonable discussion can’t be had but it’s only a fight with everybody digging in and not listening to each other. Abolishing the police was always nonsense but there are plenty of areas where police is overused and too aggressive. In my view there shouldn’t be police in schools or hospitals. The drug war causes a lot of un…

I think the thing you're missing here is that the distortion (see the use of the word abolish here, the proposal is defunding) is completely deliberate. This divide didn't happen by accident, it's the product of decades of deliberate political choices.

Totally that this is manufactured and a lot of people see problems only as something that’s related to winning an election. Still a sad state of affairs.
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