US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days • Hacker News Board

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#841

Post by nostrademons » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:50 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #760

cd_2001 wrote: post #738

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please excuse me for my semi-rant. I don't mean to be too critical, but I think framing every news about China in this "the West vs China" angle is really counterproductive. First of all, "the West" is a very vague concept, quite unlike talking about China. Does it include all of Europe? Does it include Moscow then? Does it include parts of Latinamerica? Maybe you mean NATO (but then you should include Turkey too). O…

Freedom, rational thought, free speech, democracy, rule of law etc. aren't "Western" values, they're "Enlightenment" values. After the "West" adopted them, it (the countries, and the people) enjoyed unprecedented improvement in living standards, a scientific boom and so on. China is free to adopt those values anytime. In the meantime, I (and looks like many other Westerns) will be working towards ensuring that non-En…

Interesting that you mention the Enlightenment. The Enlightenment started with the depopulation of Black Death, the Great Famine, and the subsequent 3 centuries of warfare (Hundred Years War, War of the Roses, Wars of Religion, etc). Europe lost roughly 60% of its population. As a result, the survivors could bargain for higher wages, which led to a power shift from the entrenched landed aristocracy to the newly emerging merchant and guild classes. (Cynically, once the lords could no longer use peasant labor to quell any challenges to their power, they lost that power to a more egalitarian middle class.) Additionally, the survivors were overwhelmingly former members of the aristocracy - the new merchant classes were largely made up of the younger sons of noble families who previously would've been shut out of an inheritance by primogeniture. They were often educated the same way as their older brothers, but lacked control over resources in the feudal system. As the feudal system collapsed, they spread the values of the nobility into the rest of society. We got egalitarian values because everybody's ancestor used to be a lord, and most of the peasants died off.

There are some pretty obvious parallels to the current situation. It's very common for pandemics to lead to the collapse of current political organization.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#842

Post by ebg13 » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:50 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #776

cwhiz wrote: post #682

The entire western world should treat China exactly the same way China treats them. Western companies have a difficult time operating in China, but Chinese companies have zero problems operating in western countries. It’s completely unfair and if we follow this to conclusion, the future will be one of only Chinese international corporations. Would WeChat or TikTok even exist if the Chinese market were open to existin…

Why "the entire western world"? As an European, why should we align with the US in this? The EU doesn't have any tech giant because, contrary to China, we have received US tech giants with open arms. So our economies bleed money and lose jobs to the likes of Amazon, because hey, "the free market". What do we stand to gain by siding with US companies in this US companies vs. China companies wars? Perhaps it would be b…

> Why "the entire western world"? As an European, why should we align with the US in this?

That's some real cut-your-own-nose-off-to-spite-your-face territory. This is not aligning with the US. This is defending against China's policies that directly harm you and happen to also harm the US. The statement was "treat China exactly the same way China treats [you]". If you want to defend against the US too while you're at it, go ahead, but recognize what you just argued against here.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#843

Post by dheera » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:51 PM UTC

cwhiz wrote: post #682

The entire western world should treat China exactly the same way China treats them. Western companies have a difficult time operating in China, but Chinese companies have zero problems operating in western countries. It’s completely unfair and if we follow this to conclusion, the future will be one of only Chinese international corporations. Would WeChat or TikTok even exist if the Chinese market were open to existin…

The real loser of this battle will be Apple, not China; they may just lose all their Chinese users in the US to Android in a couple months.

The US is and will always be a free speech country, and they cannot go to the extent of imposing a firewall like China does. The extent to which they can take action is to require WeChat and TikTok off the app stores of the US. Which would leave Android users the option to install the app directly from an APK file, bypassing the Google store (no rooting required) while Apple users basically have no recourse without jailbreaking.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#844

Post by kjjw » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:52 PM UTC

cwhiz wrote: post #682

The entire western world should treat China exactly the same way China treats them. Western companies have a difficult time operating in China, but Chinese companies have zero problems operating in western countries. It’s completely unfair and if we follow this to conclusion, the future will be one of only Chinese international corporations. Would WeChat or TikTok even exist if the Chinese market were open to existin…

No thanks, while the US protects its digital economy from Chinese companies, it is also slapping tariffs (or is threatening) on European goods.

The US doesn’t have any friends any more because it acting like a shit to them all. Meanwhile every day it looks more like a dictatorship with no regard for its populace. Honestly it’s time the rest of the western world moved on. Relationship over.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#845

Post by ken47 » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:52 PM UTC

No one forced American corporations to do business with China. America's current lack of "greatness" is America's own fault. There is a nonzero chance that America is going to face serious economic distress in the coming decade. Those who made poor leadership decisions for America's economy are desperate to find a scapegoat. No one forced American corporations to do business with China.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#846

Post by jdietrich » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:53 PM UTC

api wrote: post #550

yorwba wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only reciprocity if you divide the world into two tribes, the "China tribe" and the "US tribe". Someone from the "China tribe" did something bad to the "US tribe", so now we're going to grab a random member of the "China tribe" and punish them for it, even if they're not the one responsible. I used to think the Western world had abandoned that kind of collective punishment, but apparently not. It ceases to be re…

> But having the president order arbitrary punishment without proof of guilt (what happened to presumption of innocence?) looks like a dictatorship to me. It is. There's a faction in the US that believes the US has to have a dictatorship to compete with China. We've been here before. The USSR looked like an unstoppable juggernaut until the late 1960s / early 1970s. Like China they started from a state of relative bac…

>China under Xinpeng finds it hard to do anything but copy, because it's a dictatorship.

WeChat is vastly more innovative than any of the American social media platforms. China makes and buys more electric vehicles than Europe, the US and Japan combined. DJI almost single-handedly created the civilian drone market. Chinese smartphone brands are regularly first-to-market with new features. The "innovative" Just Walk Out retail concept of Amazon Go is commonplace in China.

There's no doubt that China plays fast-and-loose with intellectual property laws, but the idea that they can't innovate is at least a decade out of date.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#847

Post by godtoldmetodoit » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:54 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #804

cwhiz wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China doesn’t allow many western companies to operate in China. Why should the US allow Chinese companies to operate in the US?? This is an outrage that we should not allow. They steal our intellectual property, create state funded companies that are given monopoly access to their markets, and then unleash their stolen products on the world market. And if American or other western companies try to compete on the grou…

>Why should the US allow Chinese companies to operate in the US? The US gains very substantial economic benefits from being an attractive place for international companies to do business. Foreign investors know that when they invest in America, they're getting a stable regulatory environment and a reasonably trustworthy civil legal system. If America decides to undermine that trust for short-term gain, there will be…

I highly doubt China has more levers then the US when it comes to a trade war.

China can't feed itself past subsistence level without imports. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-feeding-china/

China runs on oil just like every other modern economy, and they have pitiful amounts locally. They are the largest importer in the world and they absolutely need it to keep flowing. https://www.forbes.com/sites/judeclemente/2019/10/17/china-i...

The US can feed itself domestically, and we can supply our own energy domestically. All we have to do is no longer put merchants heading toward China under the US navies protection and the CCP will be in serious trouble very quickly. Note - I'm not even saying we have to attack them, we just stop responding to any requests for help from them and let the world know.

China relies on the US enforced world order to survive in its current form. The US relies on China for convenience, not for survival.

Would it be wise to do what I just said? I don't know, and I'm not advocating for it, I just find it funny when people say China would so obviously win a trade war when they are definitely in the worse position at a fundamental level.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#848

Post by fvdessen » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:55 PM UTC

youeseh wrote: post #793

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "the entire western world"? As an European, why should we align with the US in this? The EU doesn't have any tech giant because, contrary to China, we have received US tech giants with open arms. So our economies bleed money and lose jobs to the likes of Amazon, because hey, "the free market". What do we stand to gain by siding with US companies in this US companies vs. China companies wars? Perhaps it would be b…

- Does the US prevent European tech companies from doing business in America? - Does the US prevent European people from finding work, moving to, and purchasing property in America?

The USA protects its market by letting monpolies grow and abuse their dominant positions unchecked. And when that is not sufficient we now know what happens; competitors are banned.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#849

Post by fermienrico » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:56 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #776

cwhiz wrote: post #682

The entire western world should treat China exactly the same way China treats them. Western companies have a difficult time operating in China, but Chinese companies have zero problems operating in western countries. It’s completely unfair and if we follow this to conclusion, the future will be one of only Chinese international corporations. Would WeChat or TikTok even exist if the Chinese market were open to existin…

Why "the entire western world"? As an European, why should we align with the US in this? The EU doesn't have any tech giant because, contrary to China, we have received US tech giants with open arms. So our economies bleed money and lose jobs to the likes of Amazon, because hey, "the free market". What do we stand to gain by siding with US companies in this US companies vs. China companies wars? Perhaps it would be b…

Honestly, as an American, I would be totally fine with EU dominating US marketshare. Americans trust EU far more than any other conglomeration of countries.

I hope that sentiment is the same amongst other Americans. There is far more overlap between US + EU + Switzerland + UK + Australia + NZ than there are differences.

What I find dangerous is EU closing its doors and dismantling NATO, US collaboration and then fragmenting itself into dust. EU is already having a tough time keeping things together.

During a time of extreme nationalism, we need to be more collaborative.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#850

Post by toto444 » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:56 PM UTC

danboarder wrote: post #40

This is sad, we in the US are losing the little high ground we had and no longer lead by example to bring the world closer together by encouraging free markets and free people. I'm against this protectionist nationalism, it only leads to future conflict.

> I'm against this protectionist nationalism, it only leads to future conflict.

And unfortunately this is what the top comment preaches and I am very disappointed to see that the more-educated-than-the-average-person readers of HN fall into the trade war / retaliation fallacy.

Trade always benefits both parties. Otherwise they would not start trading in the first place.