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Busted retailers use bankruptcy to break leases by the thousands

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Re: Busted retailers use bankruptcy to break leases by the thousands

#151

if only the government/bank could've put moratoriums top down, freezing all rent commercial and residential. We'd be in a much better place. Now we have economic collapse, 40 million looming evictions, people will starve, and freeze, or die in a shelter w/ the pandemic. Businesses are failing because they have to meet monthly recurring bills w/ or w/out actual sales receipts. They still need to meet payroll if they'r…

> if only the government/bank could've put moratoriums top down, freezing all rent commercial and residential. We'd be in a much better place.

This is exactly what I was saying in March, but everyone was too busy clutching their pearls, concerned about what will happen when pension funds lose a few percentage points of their value.

Well, now they are going to lose a few percentage points of their value, in addition to society dealing with a tsunami of bankruptcies, on top of trillions of bailouts. And we're still early on in this epidemic.

Re: Busted retailers use bankruptcy to break leases by the thousands

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you missed my point, that eventually the pain will trickle down to the rest of us at the bottom. I should have continued the domino metaphor to this conclusion to avoid misunderstanding, I'm sorry. And to be fair, I and likely many other "regular Joes" benefited initially from the 2008/9 downturn; I was able to buy my first home, humble as it is, at less than half its usual market value. I'm still enjoying th…

There is a lot less pain tricking down if the lenders and real estate owners take the brunt of it.

I think you vastly underestimate how over-leveraged everyone is.

The real estate owners are no more resilient than a sheet of paper when it comes to the guillotine that could be coming for the economy. And, while I'm sure a lot of people aren't feeling any particular love for real-estate folks in general due to the current administration - letting them get liquidated and then trying to build up a replacement is harder and more damaging than just propping them up.

But I, personally, am seriously done with this slap-on-this-wrist for endangering the economy during clear weather BS. Engaging in unsafe business practices can cause massive loss of life - whether you're Wells Fargo inflating fake accounts and leveraging them as assets, the wolf of wall street or just committing some plain old accounting fraud we need to come down hard as a society and stop glorifying it as if these clowns are sticking it to the man.

Re: Busted retailers use bankruptcy to break leases by the thousands

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is exactly why we have bankruptcy! You're not wrong, and under normal circumstances this would be a blip on the radar. However, the hundreds if not thousands of locations each of these companies plan to shutter will have an unprecedented effect on the commercial real estate market. Within months we will have thousands of property owners suddenly unable to pay their mortgages because they no longer have tenants…

Won't somebody please think of the landlords and banks

I don't understand this attitude that someone who decides to invest their money into real estate instead of the stock market should be derided as a plague on society, as if it's not much more work to be a landlord than a stock market investor. When you are a landlord, you have to worry about tenants that don't pay (and threaten you with physical violence when you try to collect), tenants that damage your property, having to fix the property (some even do their own work to save money). You might not even be able to evict a problem tenant easily without some long dragged out court case, during which time you are collecting no rent. When tenants move out, you worry about how long it will take to find another tenant, as mortgage payments and taxes and repairs don't stop when there is no tenant. You have to worry about the local market situation changing, perhaps some new construction like a factory might make your property less desirable, perhaps young people just think that the area is played out, and so you will have to try to sell your property ahead of the change while looking for a new one. You have to constantly track possible changes in other neighborhoods as potential places to buy if needed. This information is not available online, you have to beat feet and constantly talk to other people and track down rumors, trying to get the big picture over all the little neighborhoods in your city. And if you are actually forced to sell and buy somewhere else, you have to spend months or years going all over the city to find another property (good real estate are just not on the market that often). Mistakes have a huge cost, and a poor choice could wipe you out as you are locked in to a property that doesn't bring income and have no buyers. You have to worry about tax laws and real estate laws changing, maybe forcing you to sell at a loss just to avoid a bigger loss later. Landlords are not people sitting on the porch, drinking iced tea and twirling their mustache while the money gets delivered in big bags. There's a lot of work and stress that goes into it, just like most other jobs.

Re: Busted retailers use bankruptcy to break leases by the thousands

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe someone that understands this better than I do can comment, but isn't this something that can lead to CLO collapse and systemic financial system failure (similar to 2008, but maybe not as severe?). Described in this: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/07/coronav... The Dodd-Frank act capital requirements seems like they'll protect banks a bit, but to an outside layman like me it does seem like th…

Banks don’t own much of CLOs compared to other market participants, banks have much more stable and safe assets across the board, the borrowers are not individuals with mortgages but companies with diverse capital structures and interests. They are similar to CDOs and there are certainly those taking too much risk in the CLO market. The Fed brought up this issue before the pandemic and no one seemed to care...

> "the borrowers are not individuals with mortgages but companies with diverse capital structures and interests"

I'd be skeptical how different this is in practice. In 2008 there was an incentive to give loans to people without caring if they could pay because you could immediately sell them to larger banks that never checked the underlying status of the borrower.

With CLOs the borrowers are already selected to be companies in trouble - is the underlying resell incentive fixed if they're still being bundled together? In some ways the selection is worse because while most people need a mortgage no matter how good their credit is, I think business loans are needed more by desperate businesses. At least if the banks don't own as much (like you said) that's probably good.

From that Atlantic article:

> "A CLO walks and talks like a CDO, but in place of loans made to home buyers are loans made to businesses—specifically, troubled businesses. CLOs bundle together so-called leveraged loans, the subprime mortgages of the corporate world."

I think the structure of the CLO tranches rely on not all small loans collapsing at once and I'd bet the banks risk models (which already are incentivized towards taking on too much risk) didn't account for a global pandemic forcing everyone to stay at home.

I know Dodd-Frank requires them to have lots of capital on hand to protect against this kind of problem, but is it enough?

Also for us regular people, what should we be doing? Sell index funds and just buy Amazon?

Again, from that Atlantic article:

> "For the moment, the financial system seems relatively stable. Banks can still pay their debts and pass their regulatory capital tests. But recall that the previous crash took more than a year to unfold. The present is analogous not to the fall of 2008, when the U.S. was in full-blown crisis, but to the summer of 2007, when some securities were going underwater but no one yet knew what the upshot would be."

I don’t work in finance and these topics always bring out over confident know-nothings on HN going on about policies they don't understand (and I don't want to be that), but there are parallels here that seem pretty disturbing.

I don't want to be in the Summer of 2007, our institutions are less stable than they were back then and the politics have gotten scarier.

Re: Busted retailers use bankruptcy to break leases by the thousands

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you missed my point, that eventually the pain will trickle down to the rest of us at the bottom. I should have continued the domino metaphor to this conclusion to avoid misunderstanding, I'm sorry. And to be fair, I and likely many other "regular Joes" benefited initially from the 2008/9 downturn; I was able to buy my first home, humble as it is, at less than half its usual market value. I'm still enjoying th…

There is a lot less pain tricking down if the lenders and real estate owners take the brunt of it.

You are right, sadly Schadenfreude (gloat?) would mean a non-trivial relief to the pain of many people

Re: Busted retailers use bankruptcy to break leases by the thousands

#156
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a situation like this, capitalism hits its limits. Don’t get me wrong, Im a thorough going capitalist. To me it’s simply a consequence of respecting individual freedoms and individual property rights. The rest of capitalism flows from those two principles. In this situation though, when there is a threat to society as a whole either military or natural, there’s a legitimate role for society to pull together and co…

I’m fine with bailing out companies as long as the owners and managers forfeit all their equity.

It's not an easy thing to find out who did what - trying to figure out which managers and owners were purposefully over-inflating equity to secure larger loans (or whatever) from those who were duped by the other managers and were just trying to keep the ship afloat is a really hard problem.

And, in this fun world, you might find a terribly over-leveraged business where no one ever tried to act fraudulently but some vulture capitalist consultant helped "ensure access to liquid assets" and is now in Kiribati watching the world burn.

Re: Busted retailers use bankruptcy to break leases by the thousands

#157
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But the moves threaten to upend huge swaths of the real estate market and the half-trillion dollar market for commercial mortgage-backed securities. I wouldn't worry about that. I fully expect the federal reserve to "fix" this by buying the toxic assets with printed money.

If capitalism is to be the law of the land, why not let the rich lose everything? I guess they can easily live on the streets.

I gathered the issue is when the rich lose everything that snowballs into failing business and low to middle class unemployment surge.

Re: Busted retailers use bankruptcy to break leases by the thousands

#158
post #126

The US has too much retail space. Per capita, it has 5x as much as Europe (23.5 sq ft in the US vs 3-4 sq ft in most European countries) and 8-10x as much as Asia (2-3 sq ft). We may be looking at a permanent decrease as a result of this pandemic. But even if it goes down by 20%, the US will still have way more than anywhere else. I think we'll be better off when we use the excess retail space for something else whet…

A while back, in the early 2000s (maybe the 90s), there was all that talk floating around about the ghost Walmarts left over when they'd over-saturate a market with box stores to kill off the competition then scale back to a single mega-location. When that was happening the US did nothing - they didn't try and protect small businesses ("it's the will of the market!") and nor was Walmart even gone after for littering.

This situation exists because the US has been overly complacent for quite a while and happy to ascribe these warning signs as mere minor side effects of the most patriotic American capitalism - this was pretty easy to do while everything was building leverage on leverage and everyone had plenty of bread on the table.

The US economy is rotten to the core, it's really unfortunate but I hope when this house of cards inevitably falls down it at least serves as a lesson for history.

Re: Busted retailers use bankruptcy to break leases by the thousands

#159

I wonder how Apple will respond if malls start collapsing. (I’ve heard rumor that) they pay just pennies on the dollar for their store leases because they draw so much foot traffic to the malls. I can’t imagine them keeping stores open in the middle of a nearly empty mall, but I’ve only ever seen pictures of an Apple store that wasn’t in a mall or strip mall.

My guess would be they’d move their mall based stores to better locations. They have a lot of non-mall stores to use as examples, including every one of their flagship stores.

I just can’t picture what the flagship store model would look like in e.g. Charlotte NC

Re: Busted retailers use bankruptcy to break leases by the thousands

#160

I wonder how Apple will respond if malls start collapsing. (I’ve heard rumor that) they pay just pennies on the dollar for their store leases because they draw so much foot traffic to the malls. I can’t imagine them keeping stores open in the middle of a nearly empty mall, but I’ve only ever seen pictures of an Apple store that wasn’t in a mall or strip mall.

Some leases are conditioned the presence of an anchor tenant. So a department store failing can trigger these clauses allowing rent reductions or early termination for smaller retailers.

Not sure Apple would be hoping for a rent reduction if they are already paying a tiny amount of rent. If all US malls (mostly) shut down in the next (say) 8 months and never open again it seems Apple will have hundreds of stores to relocate.
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