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IIUC, dark-skinned people have higher covid19 mortality rates, and physicians usually(?) use this kind of oxymeter in their decision-making. I wonder if there's a connection.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Frustratingly, this kind of dismissal perpetuates injustices. First, let's be clear: > Doctors know that these pulse ox meters aren't very accurate and use them accordingly Some doctors know... > Nobody's changing their plan because you have a pulse ox of 93 instead of 95. They're there to quickly measure big changes that indicate a problem. Sometimes , perhaps even often , they're used for this. It's one use case of…
This IS NOT BIAS ! This is physics! As someone else pointed out, this isn't only about melanin in the skin. Darkened skin for any reason will cause this (burns, smoking, dirt, etc...). Medical personnel are trained to account for this partial accuracy. The other fact is that there are newer techniques being worked on to improve the technology.
This is absolutely bias, and it is entirely due to engineering choices made by people, not nature.
The author cites one study where doctors noticed "a bias of up to 8 percent", which sounds high, but if you click through to the link provided, it says:
>The mean bias (Spo2 − Sao2) for the 70%–80% saturation range was 2.61% for the Masimo Radical with clip-on sensor, −1.58% for the Radical with disposable sensor, 2.59% for the Nellcor clip, 3.6% for the Nellcor disposable, −0.60% for the Nonin clip, and 2.43% for the Nonin disposable.
Basically, the amount of bias varies by manufacturer and type of device, and it is not always a positive bias as implied by the text of the link.
This seems to be more of a case of measurement error bounds inherent to any measurement device, rather than "a popular medical device encod[ing] racial bias" and all the other rhetoric in the article.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
This IS NOT BIAS ! This is physics! As someone else pointed out, this isn't only about melanin in the skin. Darkened skin for any reason will cause this (burns, smoking, dirt, etc...). Medical personnel are trained to account for this partial accuracy. The other fact is that there are newer techniques being worked on to improve the technology.
> This IS NOT BIAS! This is physics! Bias doesn't happen in physics. Bias happens where humans and physics interact. > Medical personnel are trained to account for this Medical personnel aren't the only people who use pulse oximeters and need them to read reliably. Beyond that, this thread and the article it discusses are full of examples of why "medical personnel are trained" isn't enough of an answer here.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q="bias%20in%20physics"&b...
"Cargo Cult Science" (esp. Millikan). http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm
Einstein to M. Curie: https://www.brainpickings.org/2016/04/19/einstein-curie-lett...
Planck: Science advances one funeral at a time. (See also Kuhn.) https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Max_Planck
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I agree that seeking evidence is how issues are addressed. The problem is that evidence is being sought in a particular way, which systematically biases which evidence is available for consideration. Edit: there is a further problem that because many interpretations of the same facts are possible if you go looking for certain things you will very likely find them. While someone with different initial beliefs will fin…
But you seem to be suggesting that we ignore skin color as a relevant factor, despite the data, out of a belief that any correlations drawn from that data must be distorted to further a political agenda. The article presents what appears to be a plausible, evidence-based hypothesis as to why skin color in particular (not exclusive of other factors) might lead to inaccurate results for dark-skinned people. It then men…
I'm also not suggesting we ignore skin color as a relevant factor. I'm taking issue with the idea that everything that involves skin color is evidence of bias or other more malicious underlying causes.
IIUC, dark-skinned people have higher covid19 mortality rates, and physicians usually(?) use this kind of oxymeter in their decision-making. I wonder if there's a connection.
The article also mentions that nonwhite people have a higher rate of their trouble with breathing being dismissed as due to anxiety compared to white people... It's possible there is a layer of biases, and at each step, there's a risk of not getting timely medical intervention resulting in poorer outcomes.
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Getting oxygen at home reimbursed by Medicare also requires diagnoses with certain conditions and specific testing. If oxygen at home is required the testing to satisfy Medicare requirements won't be conducted using the common finger tip pulse ox meter.
Do you have an example of what testing they do actually use?
[1]: https://www.tomsguide.com/news/apple-watch-6-blood-oxygen-mo...
I wonder if the pulse oxes in China are calibrated for Chinese skin or White skin? Many people are buying pulse oxes straight off of Alibaba and they might be getting readings that are too low if the calibration is off.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> This IS NOT BIAS! This is physics! Bias doesn't happen in physics. Bias happens where humans and physics interact. > Medical personnel are trained to account for this Medical personnel aren't the only people who use pulse oximeters and need them to read reliably. Beyond that, this thread and the article it discusses are full of examples of why "medical personnel are trained" isn't enough of an answer here.
Both measurement and social/cultural bias occur in physics: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q="bias%20in%20physics"&b... "Cargo Cult Science" (esp. Millikan). http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm Einstein to M. Curie: https://www.brainpickings.org/2016/04/19/einstein-curie-lett... Planck: Science advances one funeral at a time. (See also Kuhn.) https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Max_Planck
Yes, the way in which varying wavelengths of light interact with varying configurations of bulk matter is a physical phenomenon, and not subject to bias.
But that isn't the same as saying, as the comment to which I originally replied seemed to do, that no bias can exist in the way in which that phenomenon is interpreted by humans.