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Pulse oximeters give biased results for people with darker skin

bostonreview.net

71–80 of 124 posts

Re: Pulse oximeters give biased results for people with darker skin

#71
post #13

This really isn't a big deal. Doctors know that these pulse ox meters aren't very accurate and use them accordingly. Nobody's changing their plan because you have a pulse ox of 93 instead of 95. They're there to quickly measure big changes that indicate a problem. In other words, they're looking for patients going from 98 to 75, not 98 to 95.

Frustratingly, this kind of dismissal perpetuates injustices.

First, let's be clear:

> Doctors know that these pulse ox meters aren't very accurate and use them accordingly

Some doctors know...

> Nobody's changing their plan because you have a pulse ox of 93 instead of 95. They're there to quickly measure big changes that indicate a problem.

Sometimes, perhaps even often, they're used for this. It's one use case of pulse oximetry, and it's an important one.

I read your post as extrapolating general claims from common cases, and erasing the real experiences of people that fall outside of these common cases.

Bias often happens at the margins. That doesn't make it less real for the people who suffer from it, even if most people don't suffer, even if the common cases work well.

It can be hard to see those margins when you aren't in them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist -- they are still worth writing about and trying to fix.

Re: Pulse oximeters give biased results for people with darker skin

#72
post #26
post #13

This really isn't a big deal. Doctors know that these pulse ox meters aren't very accurate and use them accordingly. Nobody's changing their plan because you have a pulse ox of 93 instead of 95. They're there to quickly measure big changes that indicate a problem. In other words, they're looking for patients going from 98 to 75, not 98 to 95.

What's the point of casually dismissing this article's premise? Whether the conclusions are fully sound or not isn't the goal of this article, this is journalistic not academic. The goal is to raise awareness of a potential bias, and I think it achieves that (assuming the facts all check out). For one, according to the article the discrepancy was found to be up to 8 points in some cases, not 3. And it seems reasonabl…

Medicine is very rarely about absolutes, it's mostly about how things get better or worse. When I was in the hospital, no one looked at the absolute values of my blood work, they cared to see if it dropped based on the treatment they saw.

Also, doctors are already aware about how oximeters may be inaccurate. It doesn't mean that they still can't be useful.

Re: Pulse oximeters give biased results for people with darker skin

#74

I'm a student EMT and our instructor told us not to rely on a pulse ox reading if our patient has dark skin, or if they were in a fire, or are a lifelong smoker, or if they have any nail polish or dirt/grease on their fingertips. We just look for the 94-100% range and would only take action if we get a reading around 87% or lower, or see a sudden drop during treatment. There are a few alternatives designs that aim to…

Personally, I've never seen a case where the difference was clinically meaningful. So, meh...

Re: Pulse oximeters give biased results for people with darker skin

#75
post #31
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FTA: "At a reading of 88 or 89, Medicare will reimburse for oxygen at home, but at 90 it won’t"

Getting oxygen at home reimbursed by Medicare also requires diagnoses with certain conditions and specific testing. If oxygen at home is required the testing to satisfy Medicare requirements won't be conducted using the common finger tip pulse ox meter.

Do you have an example of what testing they do actually use?

Re: Pulse oximeters give biased results for people with darker skin

#77
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The product just wouldn't have shipped with a product manager who also experienced it not working. Thats the point of inclusion. Although the soap dispenser example feels like one of those problems, it is just wear and tear of the sensor and they work properly when cleaned. In this case, pulseox failures, can have effects on when people are admitted for treatment.

> The product just wouldn't have shipped with a product manager who also experienced it not working. Yes sure, why don't we dispense with our most important and practical monitoring system because it has a racial bias? Pulsoxymetry saves lives every day. Many lives. Just ask old caregivers who were around before them.

> why don't we dispense with our most important and practical monitoring system because it has a racial bias?

uh we're saying make a better one.

and to only order the better ones.

and if you are making a better one to factor in these things.

and it is easier to factor in these things with a more diverse team as the edge cases won't be considered edge cases, but main cases.

Re: Pulse oximeters give biased results for people with darker skin

#78
post #54
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of casually dismissing this article's premise? Whether the conclusions are fully sound or not isn't the goal of this article, this is journalistic not academic. The goal is to raise awareness of a potential bias, and I think it achieves that (assuming the facts all check out). For one, according to the article the discrepancy was found to be up to 8 points in some cases, not 3. And it seems reasonabl…

>What's the point of casually dismissing this article's premise? Because it should be casually dismissed. This person doesn't know what they're talking about, refused to listen to the people who told them they didn't know what they are talking about, and wrote an article full of nonsense.

"Journalists" in 2020 summarized.

Re: Pulse oximeters give biased results for people with darker skin

#79
post #76

It's maybe not too surprising that a device that works by shining a light through your skin is affected by pigments in the skin.

That's not supposed to be surprising, it's the fact most pulse OX meters are known to not work well for darker skin and it simply wasn't fixed.

Re: Pulse oximeters give biased results for people with darker skin

#80
post #71
post #13

This really isn't a big deal. Doctors know that these pulse ox meters aren't very accurate and use them accordingly. Nobody's changing their plan because you have a pulse ox of 93 instead of 95. They're there to quickly measure big changes that indicate a problem. In other words, they're looking for patients going from 98 to 75, not 98 to 95.

Frustratingly, this kind of dismissal perpetuates injustices. First, let's be clear: > Doctors know that these pulse ox meters aren't very accurate and use them accordingly Some doctors know... > Nobody's changing their plan because you have a pulse ox of 93 instead of 95. They're there to quickly measure big changes that indicate a problem. Sometimes , perhaps even often , they're used for this. It's one use case of…

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