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Men rescued from Pacific island after writing SOS in sand

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Re: Men rescued from Pacific island after writing SOS in sand

#41

Post by 7952 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #8
implying wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were lost at sea / in the wilderness, would you trust your safety and eventual return to a machine learning model picking up your body heat? I know I'd want actual people in the aircraft.

You can do both. Predator/Reaper/Global Hawks [1] [2] working alongside human aircraft, deployed from land or aircraft carrier. If you don't trust the ML, have humans in the Vegas desert watching the feed. I imagine military sensor platforms are very good for identification of humans. > Five Reapers can provide 36 hours of combined surveillance coverage in Afghanistan with individual sorties lasting up to 16 hours; a…

The sky is cloudy a lot of the time which limits the effectiveness of satellite imagery.

Re: Men rescued from Pacific island after writing SOS in sand

#42

Post by throwaway5752 »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #39
throwaway5752 wrote: post #4

Call this a freely given and viable but hard to monetize idea - this is a very tractable area for software and drones. Same with locating people in lost wilderness areas. You have a programmatic way to organize coverage areas, you have access to above-human audio and video capabilities, and it reduces the resources/time ratio that is critical in rescues. This was the tragic and avoidable story that convinced me this…

This does not work well in practice, yet. There is a lot of interest already in using both off-the-shelf and more purpose-built drone technologies in search and rescue. They currently have too many limitations: they cannot navigate complex tree canopies close enough to the ground to provide reliable visual contact with subjects; their flight time is so limited that deployment and management is a real pain for large s…

Thanks for the informative reply. Your point about "What we need is a balloon that we can put up with a big ol' repeater on it" is particularly brilliant and I hope the right people are reading.

Re: Men rescued from Pacific island after writing SOS in sand

#43

Post by thaumaturgy »

oh_sigh wrote: post #5
throwaway5752 wrote: post #4

Call this a freely given and viable but hard to monetize idea - this is a very tractable area for software and drones. Same with locating people in lost wilderness areas. You have a programmatic way to organize coverage areas, you have access to above-human audio and video capabilities, and it reduces the resources/time ratio that is critical in rescues. This was the tragic and avoidable story that convinced me this…

Well, there are just personal locator beacons which you can rent and tell rescue personnel exactly where you are if you need a rescue.

This is the right answer. A Garmin InReach or similar device with two-way messaging capabilities should be regarded as standard equipment now for anyone going into backcountry or remote areas.

The two-way messaging allows local rescue teams to assess your condition, confirm your location, and deploy the appropriate resources more quickly.

Re: Men rescued from Pacific island after writing SOS in sand

#44

Post by Razengan »

ghaff wrote: post #29
Razengan wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you lose them or they fail to work?

Then you’re in the same place as if you didn’t have one and you’re hopefully not making yourself utterly dependent on them.

Then it’s not really the same thing as the GP’s comment was taking about: A service that looks for you and SOS signals which can be constructed at the distress site without depending on any equipment you had before you were stranded.

Re: Men rescued from Pacific island after writing SOS in sand

#45

Post by thaumaturgy »

Alupis wrote: post #9
throwaway5752 wrote: post #4

Call this a freely given and viable but hard to monetize idea - this is a very tractable area for software and drones. Same with locating people in lost wilderness areas. You have a programmatic way to organize coverage areas, you have access to above-human audio and video capabilities, and it reduces the resources/time ratio that is critical in rescues. This was the tragic and avoidable story that convinced me this…

Or... a dude in a helicopter with FLIR? Sometimes, low tech is best, honestly. Of course they already have that. The problem isn't coverage usually, it's density of the terrain features and vegetation, and an unknown search radius in some cases. That, and unprepared people with no way to signal a search vehicle if one comes near. That's a human problem though, not a tech problem.

> Or... a dude in a helicopter with FLIR?

Just FYI, in California CHP provides this capability to many areas free of charge, if requested by the county in charge. And CHP's pilots are very, very good.

Re: Men rescued from Pacific island after writing SOS in sand

#46

Post by hluska »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #25
Alupis wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Get the helicopter with a flir camera, but also send out 50 quadcopters or uavs as a force multiplier. You're going to have to contend with the disruption of 50 quadcopters barreling their way through natural wild habitat, foilage and more without disturbing all of the animals that live there. Or simply convince people that is a worth-while trade-off for saving unprepared skiiers that went off trail and down the wr…

I will push back on you a bit there. Most people can only cover a couple of dozen miles a day, depending on the person and the terrain. A lot of the time, they realize they are lost and will yell or try to make themselves found. Maybe a high foliage environment would be a better target for directional mics / acoustics. I think the search and rescue efforts as they stand are pretty disruptive (helicopters, teams cover…

I agree with what you’re saying and I’ll add another point in your favour.

At points, SAR teams have to make really difficult choices. Consider rescue operations in mountain ranges. Search and rescue teams have to contend with the same kinds of conditions that often lead extremely experienced, skilled teams to disaster. Ground teams, for example, have to deal with avalanche risks. Air teams have to deal with constantly shifting weather patterns. There’s a point when they have to call off searches as it’s often not worth sacrificing their own lives to find people who went into ranges on their own volition, got lost, ran into bad weather or got diverted, stranded (or worse) due to avalanches.

A drone based rescue operation takes that extra risk of death away.

Programmatically though, that leads to all sorts of other problems. One sad fact of mountain ranges is that while most climbers practice excellent hygiene and etiquette, there are others who leave ropes, gear and debris behind.

But combined with education on good disaster beacons and ways to make your team highly visible to computers, I think you’re onto something.

This is an excellent idea and if I had solved the money problem, I’d take it and run. Alas, I haven’t so I hope someone else sees this idea and goes with it. It sounds like something that SAR communities would be interested in. Depending on how interested you are in a follow up, it might be worth putting this concept forward to groups like the Alpine Club of Canada or any of the communities where SAR technicians hang out.

Good idea friend and I like how you articulated it!! Good luck!!!

Re: Men rescued from Pacific island after writing SOS in sand

#47

Post by ohazi »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #4

Call this a freely given and viable but hard to monetize idea - this is a very tractable area for software and drones. Same with locating people in lost wilderness areas. You have a programmatic way to organize coverage areas, you have access to above-human audio and video capabilities, and it reduces the resources/time ratio that is critical in rescues. This was the tragic and avoidable story that convinced me this…

The "search" part of search and rescue is a solved problem. There's no reason to go into the wilderness without a PLB in 2020.

PLBs cost around $300 [1], they have five+ year batteries, and they don't require a subscription. If you need to use it, you turn it on, it grabs a GPS lock and transmits your coordinates for about a day, during which at least one satellite will see your signal and downlinks all over the planet will log your location. It may still take some time for rescue services to get to you, but finding you will no longer be the primary concern.

If $300 is still too much, you can usually rent or borrow one for the duration of your trip. Just throw one in your backpack and consider yourself lucky if you never end up needing it.

The nature of emergencies means you don't know what you're going to run into. You could be lost, you could have a broken leg, you could have been bitten by something lethal, you could be treading water 100 miles offshore. You could have provisions for a month, or you could need a medevac ASAP.

If you actually have an emergency, do you want to sit around for a week and hope that you get noticed, or do you want rescue services all over the planet to have your exact coordinates within the hour?

Ten years ago these might have been newfangled novelty gadgets, but today they really should be considered required safety equipment if you're going into an area that's remote, or where there's a real possibility of veering off course. If you're sailing a boat or flying an airplane, they're usually legally required now too. They may not be mandated for hikers or backpackers, but don't be an idiot -- you need to have one.

Rescue services don't look for lines in the sand or messages in bottles anymore. The world spent over a billion dollars to get the Cospas-Sarsat program up and running, and the expected method for signaling distress in 2020 is by satellite. You should have the equipment to make a distress call if you're going to be in a position where it may be necessary.

Don't needlessly make things harder on yourself and on rescue workers by thinking that it's manlier to flash a mirror at an airplane. That can be your backup method, but not your primary.

[1] https://www.acrartex.com/products/resqlink-400

Re: Men rescued from Pacific island after writing SOS in sand

#48

Post by Alupis »

leesalminen wrote: post #40
closeparen wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there is any such principle as "if rescuing the human might disturb some animals, just let him die."

Seriously. That’s a really extreme position to take. Saving a human’s life clearly and objectively outweighs temporarily disturbing wild animals with increased noise. Is this seriously even a debate?

Tough choices have to be made in Rescue teams all the time. Another comment pointed out above that SAR teams routinely abandon searches when it becomes too hazardous. Trading one or more human lives for another isn't worth it in many cases.

We do value human life more than animals. This is non-debatable for sure.

However, at some point the costs of pursuing a rescue might be outweighed by other factors - one of which might be destruction of wild habitat and/or animals.

Like mentioned, we could drain lakes to find lost boaters, but we don't. We could cut down forests to find lost hikers, but we don't. There is some line we won't cross - so we have to find it and debate that particular point if we want to introduce potentially disruptive technology into natural habitats.

As an aside - it pains me inside to hear stories like this[1]. A rescue (not the type we're discussing, but still applies), caused 100% by human negligence. The result? The gorilla was shot dead... for... being a gorilla. Was that fair or humane?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Harambe

Re: Men rescued from Pacific island after writing SOS in sand

#49

Post by hluska »

Alupis wrote: post #37
throwaway5752 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will push back on you a bit there. Most people can only cover a couple of dozen miles a day, depending on the person and the terrain. A lot of the time, they realize they are lost and will yell or try to make themselves found. Maybe a high foliage environment would be a better target for directional mics / acoustics. I think the search and rescue efforts as they stand are pretty disruptive (helicopters, teams cover…

> Maybe a high foliage environment would be a better target for directional mics / acoustics. I don't think this works as well as you might hope. When in dense foliage, it's difficult to hear sounds that are not that far away. It's a fantastic noise insulator. For this reason, survival classes usually teach signalling with reflective surfaces, like mirrors, watch faces, metal object/knives, etc. If you can sweep a he…

These are good points too. I like the idea of being able to deploy drones into areas where weather/conditions expose search and rescue teams to immense personal risks.

I know so little about boats or the ocean that I’m nowhere near qualified to even have an opinion. But I wonder about applications in mountain ranges where highly experienced climbers run into constantly shifting weather or unpredictable avalanche threats. At some point, search and rescue techs have to call off searches because the conditions that lead to the original disaster threaten to lead them into the very same kind of disaster.

Programmatically, that’s a very difficult problem and I can see many problems with solving it in any sort of efficient way. But armed with some education about good emergency beacons and ways to make your team visible to drone rescuers, I think there’s something there.

The crap part of search and rescue is that teams tend to go out to rescue anyone who needs it. There was an incident near Calgary several years ago when a man decided to go for a hike but didn’t have enough experience in the mountains to realize that getting down is significantly more difficult than climbing up. He didn’t survive that mistake and a SAR team found him without incident. But had weather conditions been any different, it’s sad to think that those skilled, loving people could have needed their own rescue while trying to find someone whose lack of experience lead to a personal disaster...

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