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China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

bbc.com

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Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#151

Post by [deleted] »

DarthGhandi wrote: post #147
bArray wrote: post #121

As fellow humans, there is no way to look at this situation and find something positive. The actions of the CCP need to be condemned. If you disagree with this point, we are fundamentally at odds. To those complaining about the anti-China narrative, it's the CCP (government) which are at fault, not the people. I think we should always make it very clear that it's not the Chinese people we take issue with and we are n…

> To those complaining about the anti-China narrative, it's the CCP (government) which are at fault, not the people What would you say if the people widely supported it? Do you have evidence otherwise? Most mainlanders don't seem to care at all, that's pretty common knowledge and not some fear of speaking out issue. There's plenty of online forums where they anonymously express themselves and widely mock and criticis…

[deleted]

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#152

Post by iamjordanlittle »

karxxm wrote: post #142
throwaway9990 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are prisoners.

If those are "only" prisoners, then it should be okay to let foreign inspectors in and talk to the "prisoners", shouldn't it?

American prisons don't allow the UN in for inspections. (Maybe because the US was founded on slavery and never really got away from it so now relies on 2.2 million enslaved black people doing forced labor as a punishment for nonviolent drug crimes or inability to pay fines).

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-rights-un-usa-torture-idU...

https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/05/1063292

https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-the-us-wont-let-the-un-loo...

https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2015/07/25/809496/united-...

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#153

Post by fermienrico »

iamjordanlittle wrote: post #152
karxxm wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If those are "only" prisoners, then it should be okay to let foreign inspectors in and talk to the "prisoners", shouldn't it?

American prisons don't allow the UN in for inspections. (Maybe because the US was founded on slavery and never really got away from it so now relies on 2.2 million enslaved black people doing forced labor as a punishment for nonviolent drug crimes or inability to pay fines). https://www.reuters.com/article/us-rights-un-usa-torture-idU... https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/05/1063292 https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-t…

What’s this whole conversation have to do with America?

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#154

Post by bArray »

DarthGhandi wrote: post #147
bArray wrote: post #121

As fellow humans, there is no way to look at this situation and find something positive. The actions of the CCP need to be condemned. If you disagree with this point, we are fundamentally at odds. To those complaining about the anti-China narrative, it's the CCP (government) which are at fault, not the people. I think we should always make it very clear that it's not the Chinese people we take issue with and we are n…

> To those complaining about the anti-China narrative, it's the CCP (government) which are at fault, not the people What would you say if the people widely supported it? Do you have evidence otherwise? Most mainlanders don't seem to care at all, that's pretty common knowledge and not some fear of speaking out issue. There's plenty of online forums where they anonymously express themselves and widely mock and criticis…

> So to go back to my question, if it's actually the people

> who support this, do you consider them the enemy too?

It's a tough one. There's a lot of misinformation and propaganda out there in China and until people have a balanced idea of what the various truths are, I don't know if it can be held against them. They are likely told that they are all extremists from the only authoritative source they have available to them, you can understand why they hold the views they hold (even if we would agree they are not nice views to hold).

That said, there are people out there that hold extreme views I don't agree with (in many different social circles/cultures). As long as they don't act on these ideas and are able to be productive members of society, then it's enough to agree to disagree.

In general we need a better approach towards radicalization, and for that in my opinion we should try to solve problems internally first. Western society for example has extreme far-right and extreme far-left minorities, it's not yet clear how we step these people back from the edge (i.e. violence).

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#155

Post by chloerei »

kaybe wrote: post #145
chloerei wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, come and check, as far as I know, the government welcomes foreign media to visit Xinjiang. FMRPC once publicly invited Pompeo to visit Xinjiang. (You can use Google Translate to read) https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/web/fyrbt_673021/t1798202.shtml As mentioned earlier, the BBC visited the education camp, but found no evidence of abuse and had to use filters and editing techniques to instill ideas into the audience.

I'm sorry, this is not enough. We need a competent neutral and trusted third party to verify the truth thoroughly if we want to make sure. Statements of the Chinese government concerning this matter are not trustworthy. Statements of people under the power of the Chinese government are not trustworthy enough. I understand the country of China to be a great nation of many achievements and many internal challenges that…

There are two mistakes in your post:

1. The burden of proof shall be borne by who making the claim. I have pointed out that the evidence in this article is very easy to forge and not convincing. It is not to look for evidence that abuse does not exist, but to provide evidence that abuse exists.

2. The mistakes made by Western countries do not mean that China will make the same mistakes. Everyone here has learned about German concentration camps from middle school textbooks, so there is no need to introduce it to me.

Western media often use these two mistakes to fabricate lies that have no evidence but are easy for people in the Western world to believe.

In this thread, I have seen people angry and threatening to retaliate against China, which is very dangerous to the whole world. I understand that your post is out of good intentions, please take my post as a kind warning:

Two Minutes Hate in the novel "1984" appeared.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#156

Post by pg_1234 »

bArray wrote: post #121

As fellow humans, there is no way to look at this situation and find something positive. The actions of the CCP need to be condemned. If you disagree with this point, we are fundamentally at odds. To those complaining about the anti-China narrative, it's the CCP (government) which are at fault, not the people. I think we should always make it very clear that it's not the Chinese people we take issue with and we are n…

* * * But can you trust the source. It is after all a model, who's entire career revolves around faking appearances for the camera. A determined news team and a suitably sympathetic model could have produced a similar report on any story. Perhaps find a more credible source to support.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#158

Post by AnimalMuppet »

rydre wrote: post #57
rvz wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what happens when you show this evidence to a Chinese Ambassador and diplomat. [0] [0] https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1284784810200838145

This has been debunked, look it up.

When making a claim like that, consider supplying a source. You could look it up, and tell us exactly what you've got in mind. Or you could make every one of us look it up, and even if we found something, we'd wonder if it was the same thing that you found convincing.

You not only stated an unsupported claim, you were also willing to waste many peoples' time to avoid wasting your own.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#159

Post by coliveira »

abc-xyz wrote: post #117
coliveira wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm waiting for when western countries will start to protest against the US.

Already happened many times. A recent example is the BLM protests that took place all over the world. There has also been a lot of protests against Trump, including the famous baby balloon that was seen during his UK visit.

You are mistaken, BLM around the world is not a protest against the US, it is a protest for better treatment of black people everywhere. People in the occident don't have guts to protest the US, unless it is coming from some left wing party that is then viewed as extremist.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#160

Post by kaybe »

chloerei wrote: post #155
kaybe wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, this is not enough. We need a competent neutral and trusted third party to verify the truth thoroughly if we want to make sure. Statements of the Chinese government concerning this matter are not trustworthy. Statements of people under the power of the Chinese government are not trustworthy enough. I understand the country of China to be a great nation of many achievements and many internal challenges that…

There are two mistakes in your post: 1. The burden of proof shall be borne by who making the claim. I have pointed out that the evidence in this article is very easy to forge and not convincing. It is not to look for evidence that abuse does not exist, but to provide evidence that abuse exists. 2. The mistakes made by Western countries do not mean that China will make the same mistakes. Everyone here has learned abou…

1. I do think there are enough hints and reports to justify further investigations. If they are unfounded, fantastic, that is the best outcome.

2. No, of course not. But someone will make the same mistake at some point, because it is human. We need to stay vigilant. This kind of thing can happen again and again all over the world.

> In this thread, I have seen people angry and threatening to retaliate against China, which is very dangerous to the whole world.

I agree that this is very dangerous. Then again, I don't believe anything drastic will happen as long as China does not outright start a war, which hopefully I'm right about not happening (which is what did not occur in Germany - if not for that the Nazis might still be in power).

Thank you for the warning, I'll keep it in mind. Hate is far from our general sentiment about it for me and the people around me though. You don't need to be an evil hated person or group to allow this to happen, as I said, it's human. And again, China even recently did some great things, such as lifting large parts of its population out of dire poverty, which is an amazing feat.

I wonder though, how are you so sure it's fine?

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