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Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

nytimes.com

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Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#41

Post by coredog64 »

kurthr wrote: post #22
CydeWeys wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. For all the people boosting nuclear power, the reality on the ground seems to be that it just does not work anymore. It's way too expensive and never gets done, and this problem is global, not just in the US; see e.g. https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a33499619/fr... At some point the results have to speak for themselves, and solar/wind plus battery storage is actually working and being built. That…

Yes, but what will we do if/when wind and solar just "doesn't work anymore". In the US trains "don't work anymore"... but they do in other countries. This gradual erosion of technical capability is a generic problem the US needs to solve. Nuclear is a case study of what is wrong and where the problems are (political, business, education).

This is a mischaracterization of the state of US rail. The US has prioritized freight rail over passenger rail. That’s not a terrible choice given the long distances and the lower sensitivity to slower, more efficient speeds.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#42

Post by jeffreyrogers »

zackees wrote: post #30
epistasis wrote: post #3

This article is more than three years old, but the story hasn't changed much. VC Summer was abandoned, leaving utility customers with massive bills. Vogtle soldiers on, but seems to be unlikely to finish. Nucleae's problems are not the politics, the problem is that basic competency in design and construction logistics have been lost. Plans get delivered to construction that are "unconstructable," but construction sol…

Wait until this guy finds out France is nearly all nuclear and did it at 1/10th the cost of solar and wind. Are people not able to do an internet search for this stuff? All this data is right out there in the open.

It's a coping mechanism. They want to believe solar and wind will solve all the problems because it is comforting. Of course, it also totally ignores how renewables are enabled by peaker plants burning natural gas. And that renewables generate less electricity as a percentage of total usage now than in the 1950s. But somehow batteries are going to solve that problem. Of course, they haven't calculated how large the battery would need to be for that scenario to work out either.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#43

Post by epistasis »

zackees wrote: post #30
epistasis wrote: post #3

This article is more than three years old, but the story hasn't changed much. VC Summer was abandoned, leaving utility customers with massive bills. Vogtle soldiers on, but seems to be unlikely to finish. Nucleae's problems are not the politics, the problem is that basic competency in design and construction logistics have been lost. Plans get delivered to construction that are "unconstructable," but construction sol…

Wait until this guy finds out France is nearly all nuclear and did it at 1/10th the cost of solar and wind. Are people not able to do an internet search for this stuff? All this data is right out there in the open.

Oh I know about that. I also know about their attempts to do it again in the past decades.... not looking good!

Don't forget the Canada examples too! They were able to build effectively.

I don't think corporate culture in the US is capable of it. Ironically the one thing that may have saved Westinghouse is if there had been more regulation, and the NRC has to not only evaluate safety of the designs, but also "can we even build this thing." Something that an exec with long term thinking would ensure! But current executive culture is about cost cutting in the moment, and it has pervaded even those companies that need to be thinking on decade long builds of projects that need to last half a century or more.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#44

Post by bryanlarsen »

nashalo_nighly wrote: post #19
epistasis wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are right, that the power of science fiction has clouded people's judgement of what the future will really be like. Today, I don't think we can consider nuclear a good or modern energy system when compared to something like solar or wind. Nuclear is used as a heat source to boil water and power a turbine, and throws away half of its thermal energy as waste. disposing of that waste heat is becoming so diff…

Solar and wind are still not good at providing a baseline load, especially in winter where the power consumption is higher. France slows down some reactors during heat waves due to environmental regulations not allowing power plants to heat the river past a certain threshold, not because disposing excess heat is inherently difficult.

Why is baseline supply an issue? The only power supplies that are needed in a system are dispatchable aka peak. If your peaker plants can handle the entire load then you don't need any other type of power. You may want to have supplies that are cheaper and/or greener, but you don't need them.

So until Nuclear plants can provide dispatchable power, they're competing against the much cheaper solar/wind power, not against natural gas or batteries where the cost disadvantage isn't as bad. Nuclear theoretically could be dispatchable, but current designs aren't.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#45

Post by ramshanker »

brandmeyer wrote: post #21
epistasis wrote: post #3

This article is more than three years old, but the story hasn't changed much. VC Summer was abandoned, leaving utility customers with massive bills. Vogtle soldiers on, but seems to be unlikely to finish. Nucleae's problems are not the politics, the problem is that basic competency in design and construction logistics have been lost. Plans get delivered to construction that are "unconstructable," but construction sol…

> the problem is that basic competency in design and construction logistics have been lost I don't think this is just a nuclear problem. This is a civil engineering problem more broadly. IMO, the exact same forces which make nuclear impractical now are also responsible for the horrific budget explosions and overruns in big projects all over the US.

I believe civil engineering part of nuclear reactor is it's easiest parts.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#46

Post by dragonwriter »

manigandham wrote: post #37
CydeWeys wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. For all the people boosting nuclear power, the reality on the ground seems to be that it just does not work anymore. It's way too expensive and never gets done, and this problem is global, not just in the US; see e.g. https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a33499619/fr... At some point the results have to speak for themselves, and solar/wind plus battery storage is actually working and being built. That…

It's expensive because it includes much more of the externalities in the price with much longer time-frames for ROI, as compared to other sources like coal or natural gas. Nuclear as a power source is fantastic. One of the biggest operators is the US Navy which has been running reactors in military vessels for decades without incident. The problem is politics, ignorance and lack of will to actually see it through, no…

> One of the biggest operators is the US Navy which has been running reactors in military vessels for decades without incident.

AFAICT, none publicly acknowledged since a bunch in the 1970s, but that may mean less than it seems since the US government has a history of covering up nuclear incidents for decades (like a whole slew at the Hanford site from the 1940s-1980s that weren't acknowledged until the 1980s.)

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#47

Post by thecal »

danans wrote: post #20

Anyone know of there is a connection beyond history and a logo between the nuclear power plant company and the household lighting company? http://www.westinghouselighting.com/

CBS bought Westinghouse and began licensing out their name to all sorts of companies. I have a "Westinghouse" TV that is made by another company. That lighting company you linked appears to be an old family business that licenses the name as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westinghouse_Licensing_Corpora...

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#48

Post by bryanlarsen »

xenspidey wrote: post #33
epistasis wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same goes for renewables, but the electrons are cheaper and easier to get on the grid!

Off-peak hours for solar is also when there is no sun, so no. Wind isn't constant either. We need a constant 24/7 source of uninterruptible energy.

We don't need a constant source, we need a source that can supply a variable load.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#49

Post by coredog64 »

CydeWeys wrote: post #15
epistasis wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are right, that the power of science fiction has clouded people's judgement of what the future will really be like. Today, I don't think we can consider nuclear a good or modern energy system when compared to something like solar or wind. Nuclear is used as a heat source to boil water and power a turbine, and throws away half of its thermal energy as waste. disposing of that waste heat is becoming so diff…

Good point about heat waste disposal. That's why you almost always see nuclear reactors along lakes/rivers/oceans, which is bad for other reasons as we saw with Fukushima, and all of that hot water being released wreaks havoc with riparian/marine ecosystems. Nuclear has downsides beyond the most obvious one, that of the risk of fallout. > I think that fission is not a good fit for terrestrial power. Heh, it's even wo…

Palo Verde uses cooling ponds filled with grey water. Per Wikipedia, it’s the largest generation plant in the US. It’s not an impossible problem.

Around 2008-2010, ORNL published a paper describing how the cheap electricity and waste heat from a nuclear plant could be used to capture carbon from the air and create carbon neutral fuels for transportation. So again, if we were looking at a holistic picture, we could definitely improve the overall climate situation with nuclear.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#50

Post by brutt »

xenspidey wrote: post #33
epistasis wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same goes for renewables, but the electrons are cheaper and easier to get on the grid!

Off-peak hours for solar is also when there is no sun, so no. Wind isn't constant either. We need a constant 24/7 source of uninterruptible energy.

Sun shines 24x365x4B at this planet, but some solar panels are in shade for some time. World network of solar panels can power this world 24x7.
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