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Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

nytimes.com

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Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#21

Post by brandmeyer »

epistasis wrote: post #3

This article is more than three years old, but the story hasn't changed much. VC Summer was abandoned, leaving utility customers with massive bills. Vogtle soldiers on, but seems to be unlikely to finish. Nucleae's problems are not the politics, the problem is that basic competency in design and construction logistics have been lost. Plans get delivered to construction that are "unconstructable," but construction sol…

> the problem is that basic competency in design and construction logistics have been lost

I don't think this is just a nuclear problem. This is a civil engineering problem more broadly. IMO, the exact same forces which make nuclear impractical now are also responsible for the horrific budget explosions and overruns in big projects all over the US.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#22

Post by kurthr »

CydeWeys wrote: post #5
epistasis wrote: post #3

This article is more than three years old, but the story hasn't changed much. VC Summer was abandoned, leaving utility customers with massive bills. Vogtle soldiers on, but seems to be unlikely to finish. Nucleae's problems are not the politics, the problem is that basic competency in design and construction logistics have been lost. Plans get delivered to construction that are "unconstructable," but construction sol…

Yup. For all the people boosting nuclear power, the reality on the ground seems to be that it just does not work anymore. It's way too expensive and never gets done, and this problem is global, not just in the US; see e.g. https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a33499619/fr... At some point the results have to speak for themselves, and solar/wind plus battery storage is actually working and being built. That…

Yes, but what will we do if/when wind and solar just "doesn't work anymore". In the US trains "don't work anymore"... but they do in other countries. This gradual erosion of technical capability is a generic problem the US needs to solve. Nuclear is a case study of what is wrong and where the problems are (political, business, education).

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#23

Post by enaaem »

CydeWeys wrote: post #5
epistasis wrote: post #3

This article is more than three years old, but the story hasn't changed much. VC Summer was abandoned, leaving utility customers with massive bills. Vogtle soldiers on, but seems to be unlikely to finish. Nucleae's problems are not the politics, the problem is that basic competency in design and construction logistics have been lost. Plans get delivered to construction that are "unconstructable," but construction sol…

Yup. For all the people boosting nuclear power, the reality on the ground seems to be that it just does not work anymore. It's way too expensive and never gets done, and this problem is global, not just in the US; see e.g. https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a33499619/fr... At some point the results have to speak for themselves, and solar/wind plus battery storage is actually working and being built. That…

People have been saying for 30 years that solar/wind are going to take off and that we don't need nuclear.

We are now in a climate crisis, and solar/wind is still a fraction of the energy portfolio.

We als can't build nuclear anymore, because we have lost decades of experience.

I really hope you are correct this time.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#24

Post by magicsmoke »

api wrote: post #17
CydeWeys wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. For all the people boosting nuclear power, the reality on the ground seems to be that it just does not work anymore. It's way too expensive and never gets done, and this problem is global, not just in the US; see e.g. https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a33499619/fr... At some point the results have to speak for themselves, and solar/wind plus battery storage is actually working and being built. That…

Nuclear is superior in some ways, but battery and renewable is small, can be incrementally built, simple, safe, and is experiencing exponential cost reductions due to mass production scaling. It reminds me of TSMC leapfrogging Intel because of mobile volume or PCs vs custom Unix workstations.

The incremental build is probably a big part of it. More volume and minor failures = more practice time and experience. How does someone "practice" building a nuclear power plant when failure can be so catastrophic?

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#25

Post by zackees »

CydeWeys wrote: post #5
epistasis wrote: post #3

This article is more than three years old, but the story hasn't changed much. VC Summer was abandoned, leaving utility customers with massive bills. Vogtle soldiers on, but seems to be unlikely to finish. Nucleae's problems are not the politics, the problem is that basic competency in design and construction logistics have been lost. Plans get delivered to construction that are "unconstructable," but construction sol…

Yup. For all the people boosting nuclear power, the reality on the ground seems to be that it just does not work anymore. It's way too expensive and never gets done, and this problem is global, not just in the US; see e.g. https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a33499619/fr... At some point the results have to speak for themselves, and solar/wind plus battery storage is actually working and being built. That…

I love how people here are trying to say that technology simply does not progress forward for nuclear, as it does for every other technolgy.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#26

Post by epistasis »

xenspidey wrote: post #18
epistasis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same for nuclear though, a steady source of power is not a good fit for our energy use. You have to start building thermal or battery storage, or do specialized more-expensive designs that can operate at variable power, or get customers to shift their load.

Just make hydrogen during off-peak hours and get the hydrogen powered vehicles up and running.

Same goes for renewables, but the electrons are cheaper and easier to get on the grid!

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#27

Post by HPsquared »

Traditional light water reactors are pretty much dead at this point, they are not economic with the layers upon layers of required safety equipment.

What's needed is simplification - there are a wide range of inherently / passively-safe Generation 4 designs - of which my particular interest is in the molten salt designs (e.g. Terrestrial Energy's Integral MSR) which could be made MUCH smaller, simpler and cheaper than traditional reactors. These might never clear the various financial, regulatory and technical hurdles, but one can hope...

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#28

Post by kn0where »

danans wrote: post #20

Anyone know of there is a connection beyond history and a logo between the nuclear power plant company and the household lighting company? http://www.westinghouselighting.com/

They used to be the same company: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westinghouse_Electric_Corpor...

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#29

Post by CydeWeys »

kurthr wrote: post #22
CydeWeys wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. For all the people boosting nuclear power, the reality on the ground seems to be that it just does not work anymore. It's way too expensive and never gets done, and this problem is global, not just in the US; see e.g. https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a33499619/fr... At some point the results have to speak for themselves, and solar/wind plus battery storage is actually working and being built. That…

Yes, but what will we do if/when wind and solar just "doesn't work anymore". In the US trains "don't work anymore"... but they do in other countries. This gradual erosion of technical capability is a generic problem the US needs to solve. Nuclear is a case study of what is wrong and where the problems are (political, business, education).

It's a good point, but I think we can fix trains more easily than nuclear power plants, because as you point out at least the trains are a solved problem in many other countries that would simply just emulate. And passenger trains have serviceable enough fallbacks (planes, Megabus, etc.), like solar/wind are proving to be fallbacks for nuclear.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017)

#30

Post by zackees »

epistasis wrote: post #3

This article is more than three years old, but the story hasn't changed much. VC Summer was abandoned, leaving utility customers with massive bills. Vogtle soldiers on, but seems to be unlikely to finish. Nucleae's problems are not the politics, the problem is that basic competency in design and construction logistics have been lost. Plans get delivered to construction that are "unconstructable," but construction sol…

Wait until this guy finds out France is nearly all nuclear and did it at 1/10th the cost of solar and wind.

Are people not able to do an internet search for this stuff? All this data is right out there in the open.

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