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The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free

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Re: The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free

#231

Post by irontinkerer »

arp242 wrote: post #181
irontinkerer wrote: post #127

The first link in the article is not a "lie". "Portland Protesters Burn Bibles, American Flags In The Streets" has a RT video that shows exactly that, and links to several other confirmed Twitter accounts all stating the same thing. How is that a lie?

That may perhaps not be the best example – although the linked Breibart article is hardly a stellar journalism and some of the commentary is wildly off-base – but the general pattern described in the article seems to be mostly right to me. IMHO dismissing/criticising a rather lengthy article just on one less-than-ideal example is not really good form.

> IMHO dismissing/criticising a rather lengthy article just on one less-than-ideal example is not really good form.

I actually up-voted the article, and started reading, then removed my up-vote when I realized the very first article linked contradicts the entire headline. If the headline is true, the author could have picked dozens of other links of obvious lies, but clearly didn't attempt to validate their own work

Re: The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free

#232

Post by stjohnswarts »

busterarm wrote: post #211
googthrowaway42 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're talking about people like Chris Wallace, then I agree with your point. People like him are very much an example of The Cathedral but on the conservative side. Even stuff like The Five is pretty middle brow and establishmentarian but they aren't the vanguards of mainstream conservatism like Maddow and Joy Reid and others are for mainstream liberalism. Steve Bannon and his movement are more representative of…

If Maddow is the vanguard of mainstream liberalism, why are her ratings so terrible?

You can only get a plurality in most cases with mainstream media, because like it or not it does tend to be progressive/liberal in most outlets (in the American sense, not European).

Re: The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free

#234

Post by wastedhours »

FranzFerdiNaN wrote: post #49
ferros wrote: post #3

I would be willing to pay an amount for better quality news than what can be found for free, however news outlets always seem to lean one way. I want somebody to just report and not tilt it in one direction.

What is unbiased? If you were a late 18th century french reporter writing a report about the death of king Louis XVI, would you write "King Louis was murdered", "King Louis was executed", "former king Louis executed by means of guillotine for high treason", "citizen Louis Capet beheaded on the order of the National Convention" or something else? All of those descriptions can be considered true and yet none are unbias…

Not only that, but either reporting it or not reporting it could also be considered bias.

Could a legitimate news organisation (considering it'd be the biggest news of the day) justify not covering it, or moving their coverage to Page 56?

That's one of the biggest criticisms I see of bias in the media, is the flexing of prominence based on stories of a similar (wider) importance.

Re: The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free

#235

Post by andrewtbham »

arp242 wrote: post #192
andrewtbham wrote: post #173

> it is not that the facts it reports tend to be inaccurate yes it is. I really lost faith in nyt when they ran article about running out of running out of charge in a Tesla. When they were caught red handed lying they still wouldn't admit to it. Their response was: "Problems With Precision and Judgment, but Not Integrity, in Tesla Test" They just don't get it. People are sick of their BS and they need to just comp t…

That's 7 years ago? I don't know anything about that entire story so I can't comment specifically, but the NYT publishes about 150 articles a day, so there are bound to be some stinkers over the years. It's not great, but dismissing an entire publication over it doesn't strike me as fair.

this attitude is part of the problem... no one goes back and holds them accountable for anything. they just move onto the next BS problem and never notice the old stuff was dead wrong.

If you want to change your perspective, invest in the companies... it will stick with you. I foolishly shorted apple around antenna gate. that was the beginning of me starting to hold the media accountable. the media is wrong over and over and people don't seem to notice.

Re: The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free

#236

Post by brendoelfrendo »

Falling3 wrote: post #202
bena wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how have we discovered the incorrect and dishonest claims? Through the process. You never have to trust the data if you have a good process. Process will verify data. Process will verify sources. Process is impartial. Trust the process, not the results. Also, I take issue with the attempt to conflate people who are incorrect with people who are dishonest. There is nothing wrong with being wrong. Being wrong is th…

>Through the process. You never have to trust the data if you have a good process. Process will verify data. Process will verify sources. Process is impartial. Trust the process, not the results. The GP's post didn't say trust science or trust data. It said trust scientists. I'm taking issue with the desire to put faith in individuals.

Who is a scientist in this case but someone publicizing the process? Their job, in the media anyway, is to explain data and results and why that data makes sense. You don't have to blindly trust the scientist if what they're saying is backed by scientific process, and you can hopefully trust-but-verify by looking at whatever scientific literature exists on the topic.

I guess I don't understand the alternative: is everyone expected to go look up the write-up and replicate the experiment for themselves because we can't trust the scientists who performed the experiment? I agree we need more replication studies, but I think we're reaching the absurd ends of the "do your own research!" movement here.

Re: The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free

#237

Post by corty »

tremon wrote: post #71
corty wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? Treason is in the eye of the revolutionary judge. The trial was never a fair one, the outcome was clear from the start. And from an unfair trial and an unjust judgement you can't lawfully execute someone, you can only murder him execution-style.

You are conflating reporting and editorializing. Whether the trial was fair and the execution just is an opinion, and yes, that has a bias. But whether you agree with the sentence has no bearing on whether it took place. So no, you can't have it both ways. You can't point to objective reporting and claim it has a bias, when in reality you mean that the reporting isn't showing your preferred bias.

There are freedom fighters and terrorists. There are fair trials and star chambers. There is information and propaganda. There are governments and regimes.

Both are true, and which term you use just depends on your point of view. Both are true, but not unbiased.

There is no proper objectivity outside of the sciences. Everything in culture, society and politics depends on an everchanging inconsistent and observer-dependent frame of reference. You can be kind-of objective if all of you and your local neighbourhood agree on a common frame of reference. But you always have to be aware of the lack of global objectivity.

Re: The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free

#238

Post by [deleted] »

andrewtbham wrote: post #173

> it is not that the facts it reports tend to be inaccurate yes it is. I really lost faith in nyt when they ran article about running out of running out of charge in a Tesla. When they were caught red handed lying they still wouldn't admit to it. Their response was: "Problems With Precision and Judgment, but Not Integrity, in Tesla Test" They just don't get it. People are sick of their BS and they need to just comp t…

[deleted]

Re: The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free

#239

Post by hirundo »

> Lyta and Brianna point out that in the real world, this justification [for copyrights] is often bullshit, because copyrights last well beyond the death of the person who actually made the thing.

I oppose long copyrights, but they do increase the value of an author's work by making it potentially pay out for longer to the buyer. At least some of that value often gets to the author in the sale price. And if they don't sell the rights there is more potential value to their heirs, which has definite value to most of us.

Re: The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free

#240

Post by aeternum »

javajosh wrote: post #213
andrewtbham wrote: post #173

> it is not that the facts it reports tend to be inaccurate yes it is. I really lost faith in nyt when they ran article about running out of running out of charge in a Tesla. When they were caught red handed lying they still wouldn't admit to it. Their response was: "Problems With Precision and Judgment, but Not Integrity, in Tesla Test" They just don't get it. People are sick of their BS and they need to just comp t…

It's a mistake to judge an organization on one, or even a handful of incidents. There should be a pattern of inaccuracy and bias before you "cancel" a news source. This is one of the unsung problems of the modern world, the growing impossibility of keeping an accurate "reputation" in your brain. Virtually everyone and everything has been accused of being evil, in general, or specifically. It's no longer good enough t…

Good point, and no news source is immune. Inaccurate and outright fake news has been around since the invention of the printing press. Benjamin Franklin himself authored plenty of it for political purposes. In fact much of the mistreatment of the Native Americans may have stemmed from his “Supplement to the Boston Independent Chronicle” article.
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