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Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

bbc.com

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Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#91
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

microcommunities and web of trust. the things you mentioned are not eliminable but i trust my peers more than a multinational with conflicting values.

You are literally describing the breeding grounds of radicalizing young men on the internet. Microcommunities, if anything, have proven themselves incredibly dangerous to human life.

I think you're right that some microcommunities aren't exactly the greatest for your mental and social wellbeing. It's not hard to find websites today that showcase and bring out the worst in people. At the same time, I'd be tempted to suggest that the sort of thing isn't much different than someone starting to "run with the wrong crowd" in high school. Or, I think socializing on the internet reflects our humanity in ways that socializing in real life does too.

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#92
post #84
post #69

If China demanded that its great firewall apply to Chinese citizens abroad, this would be considered a shocking authoritarian overreach by most people in the west. Yet a judge in Brazil can order that, and it's just taken at face value? Put another way: if the BBC can identify Bolsonaro as "far-right", why not call the judge "far-left" for doing something that not even the Communist Party of China does? Or far-someth…

The second paragraph doesn’t follow from the first. “Rule of law” and “stop taking the piss” aren’t left- or right-wing. Also: * China achieves the same goals with the Great Firewall * Despite this, “Gap apologised to China for selling a shirt in its North American outlets featuring a map of the country without Taiwan and Arunachal Pradesh included” - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-maps-des... *…

I think I have more of a European (civil law?) conception of "rule of law", centered on the law itself: it must be clearly written, it must apply equally to everyone, etc.

Americans seem to use the term for something that should more properly be called "rule of magistrates". Judges can order pretty much whatever they want (unless overruled by a higher judge); prosecutors can charge or not charge different people for the same crime at their discretion; the Supreme Court just grabbed the power to decide what is constitutional, which the constitution nowhere grants it; etc.

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't prohibit speech. That's it. Repugnance is part of life. If you suppress speech, you only push it underground. Light is the best disinfectant. Daryl Davis, a black musician, attends Klan rallies ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORp3q1Oaezw ). By knowing who to speak with, he's helped people out of that racist pit. I extend speech so far to include calls to violence. Then you know who to watch and who to protect…

Honestly I think this just doesn't work out this way in reality. First of all, we know that deplatforming racists/fascists does actually help to stop the spread of racist/fascist ideas. Secondly, and I think this is the more salient point, encountering racist/sexist/transphobic/whatever speech as a person who is the target of such rhetoric is immediately harmful and othering, especially when these views aren't active…

Why do you talk so much about these abstract problems while neglecting the real ones? Black people get shot every day and it's not by the KKK or the police, it's by other black people. They are the real danger, not some parade with slogans. Other blacks is the major violence problem facing blacks in America today and has been for many decades but nobody seems to care. Blacks and Hispanics shooting members of their own groups accounts for most of America's excess shootings compared to other high gun ownership countries. But it doesn't fit well with your political ideology so you ignore it.

A more realistic version of your job interview example is that it's in a rival gang occupied part of town. KKK isn't shooting blacks but black gang members are. Facebook doesn't seem to be able to stop that.

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But do you leave up the porn?

Assign the copyright to the victim. Then they can make a copyright claim.

And in cases where the victim is a child (like child porn) and their guardian is involved in the abuse (which is often the case)?

Then you either wait for the child to be of age to assert copyright, and force them to confront this individually, or you wait for guardianship to unwind and hope the state or foster guardian or whatever is interested in pursuing a copyright violation on behalf of a minor.

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I think this just doesn't work out this way in reality. First of all, we know that deplatforming racists/fascists does actually help to stop the spread of racist/fascist ideas. Secondly, and I think this is the more salient point, encountering racist/sexist/transphobic/whatever speech as a person who is the target of such rhetoric is immediately harmful and othering, especially when these views aren't active…

> First of all, we know that deplatforming racists/fascists does actually help to stop the spread of racist/fascist ideas. People often claim this but there doesn't seem to be any real evidence of it. You get a short-term effect because the target has to regroup, but then they move to a platform with no moderating influences and become even more radicalized. See Voat. > Secondly, and I think this is the more salient…

> See Voat.

The retreat to Voat was highly detrimental to the fascists because it massively hindered recruitment, the most effective form of which was to have moderator control of large subreddits not explicitly about politics, but saturated with far-right memes / "ironic" jokes, to slowly normalise and inculcate those ideas in people who are originally just there out of interest in some hobby. In contrast, very few people go to Voat who aren't already true believers. It's a much greater leap than from one subreddit to another.

> learning to accept that other people disagree with you and have contrary opinions is a much more robust solution

If there are people who believe in a Jewish conspiracy to destroy the white race through miscegenation, and they advocate for violent resistance in response, then "learning to accept" that is not in any way a solution.

> Inoculating the population to fascist rhetoric by publicly winning the debate against it with reasoned argument

Two points: (a) the overwhelming majority of political content consists of arguments presented without rebuttal. In the case of far-right content, it almost entirely consists of arguments against straw men, citing pseudoscience, deceitful abuse of statistics, and grandiose appeals to emotion. You can consume countless hours of content without actually encountering a genuine debate.

(b) Have you ever watched a debate between a fascist and a non-fascist? Even in response to comprehensive dismantling of their ideas, fascists remain completely insensible to facts (they can always fall back on "fake Jewish science") or reason. Some small fraction of viewers may be convinced by the debates, but the mere fact of something having been cogently debunked does very little overall.

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#96
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even non anonymous users spew out whatever narrative they believe in and a large population does it without verifying facts.

One person’s spew is another’s gospel. Many a brave soul have died for the right to spew. 🇺🇸

When has anyone ever died for that right? Names and dates please.

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#97
post #66
post #9

Very glad I'm not Facebook. No matter what choices you make, millions (or billions) will hate you. Is decentralization the only solution, if it even is one?

I agree. You may not agree with Zuckerberg's position of not censoring content (beyond the obscene), but it's probably the smartest position for the business. As soon as you start saying "well, we'll censor stuff that isn't accurate", you've opened a Pandora's box of every single interest group hammering you on every single decision and in the end everyone thinks you're screwing them over.

> beyond the obscene

I mean, that's pretty arbitrary too, e.g. FB censors female breasts, which is not considered obscene in many places.

It's a difficult line to walk.

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One complicating factor is that the United States guarantees rights that many countries do not, which can cause confusion. And another that often gets thrown is the "is social media a public square or private property" question. FWIW, simply enabling a crime to occur is not necessarily illegal.

> One complicating factor is that the United States guarantees rights that many countries do not And further it fills a large part of American identity and backstory, to the degree that they don’t seem to realise most rich countries with free citizens get on just fine without it

Just like China, gotcha.

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#99
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One person’s spew is another’s gospel. Many a brave soul have died for the right to spew. 🇺🇸

When has anyone ever died for that right? Names and dates please.

I dunno, Jesus? 0 ad.

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#100

I am glad that Brazil's court still remains independent. Looks like Bolsonaro, should borrow couple of tips from his friend Narendra Modi. Modi, dismantled the institutions in India systematically to guarantee his long lasting power. e.g. The only official from the election commission who didn't give a clean-chit to Modi for his election campaign violations during last election was greeted with Income Tax raids on hi…

And yet when I pointed out that you can't do business in India without paying bribes I was downvoted to hell. :-)
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