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Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

bbc.com

81–90 of 258 posts

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#81
post #2

Censorship is so repugnant, yet so complicated. What should be prohibited to be said, if anything? Who draws the line?

So much of the strife we're seeing in the world right now stems from information now, maybe for the first time ever, being truly free. All the gatekeepers of information are no longer relevant. This means that the truly delusional can spread their conspiracy theories and get people to believe them. But it also means that people caught within exploitative power structures can spread their stories - see MeToo as an exa…

Some of the truly delusional have always had plenty of power and ability to spread their theories - religious people. Free information will hopefully reduce that rather than enhance it. Modern small-time delusions like anti-vax or white supremacy are nowhere near the scale and badness of, say Islam. But since Islam is well established, people turn a blind eye.

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't prohibit speech. That's it. Repugnance is part of life. If you suppress speech, you only push it underground. Light is the best disinfectant. Daryl Davis, a black musician, attends Klan rallies ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORp3q1Oaezw ). By knowing who to speak with, he's helped people out of that racist pit. I extend speech so far to include calls to violence. Then you know who to watch and who to protect…

Honestly I think this just doesn't work out this way in reality. First of all, we know that deplatforming racists/fascists does actually help to stop the spread of racist/fascist ideas. Secondly, and I think this is the more salient point, encountering racist/sexist/transphobic/whatever speech as a person who is the target of such rhetoric is immediately harmful and othering, especially when these views aren't active…

> First of all, we know that deplatforming racists/fascists does actually help to stop the spread of racist/fascist ideas.

People often claim this but there doesn't seem to be any real evidence of it. You get a short-term effect because the target has to regroup, but then they move to a platform with no moderating influences and become even more radicalized. See Voat.

> Secondly, and I think this is the more salient point, encountering racist/sexist/transphobic/whatever speech as a person who is the target of such rhetoric is immediately harmful and othering, especially when these views aren't actively challenged or disavowed by society. This doesn't even include the possibility that hearing hate speech might trigger some prior trauma experienced because of one's identity.

Your theory is directly contrary to various clinical treatments for anxiety (e.g. exposure therapy) which are altogether more healthy and sustainable -- learning to accept that other people disagree with you and have contrary opinions is a much more robust solution than embracing fragility and trying to nerf the world.

Inoculating the population to fascist rhetoric by publicly winning the debate against it with reasoned argument removes its power. Refusing to do so makes it stronger, because then when people are exposed to it, they are more vulnerable having never learned how to defend themselves against it.

> Example: You have a job interview downtown, but you're black and the Klan has a parade scheduled that day, and you're scared of the calls for violence.

You are trying to make a case against speech by making an argument against violence. If the Klan commits violence they should be arrested. If they are deterred from violence by the real threat of arrest then there is no reason to fear going to your job interview no matter what they say.

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What about spam? Spam filtering isn't censorship because the recipient doesn't want to receive it. Censorship is removing access to material the recipient would otherwise choose to view. > Scams? Child porn? Doxxing? People's very personal data? A bounty to hurt a specific person, with included address and identifying information? All of these things have illegal non-speech components (fraud, child abuse), so you c…

But do you leave up the porn?

Assign the copyright to the victim. Then they can make a copyright claim.

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#84
post #69

If China demanded that its great firewall apply to Chinese citizens abroad, this would be considered a shocking authoritarian overreach by most people in the west. Yet a judge in Brazil can order that, and it's just taken at face value? Put another way: if the BBC can identify Bolsonaro as "far-right", why not call the judge "far-left" for doing something that not even the Communist Party of China does? Or far-someth…

The second paragraph doesn’t follow from the first. “Rule of law” and “stop taking the piss” aren’t left- or right-wing.

Also:

* China achieves the same goals with the Great Firewall

* Despite this, “Gap apologised to China for selling a shirt in its North American outlets featuring a map of the country without Taiwan and Arunachal Pradesh included” - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-maps-des...

* Even in liberal democracies: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel_tourism

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#85
post #69

If China demanded that its great firewall apply to Chinese citizens abroad, this would be considered a shocking authoritarian overreach by most people in the west. Yet a judge in Brazil can order that, and it's just taken at face value? Put another way: if the BBC can identify Bolsonaro as "far-right", why not call the judge "far-left" for doing something that not even the Communist Party of China does? Or far-someth…

Isn't this already true wrt China? China requires companies with ops in China to abide by censorship rules, and companies without ops in China are at risk of being blocked.

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#86
post #20

What is it going to take for facebook to voluntarily exit a country? Courts/governments all around the world are pushing the limits on what their jurisdictions cover, and facebook is being spineless. With this case it's somewhat reasonable, in the sense that the action mainly affects Brazilians, but how long until countries try to use its citizens as leverage to get facebook to conduct foreign influence? eg. country…

Personal criminal liability of owners/shareholders and the credible threat of a fine that actually dents profits. Only the EU and US have any chance on enacting sufficiently scary penalties I suspect.

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I think this just doesn't work out this way in reality. First of all, we know that deplatforming racists/fascists does actually help to stop the spread of racist/fascist ideas. Secondly, and I think this is the more salient point, encountering racist/sexist/transphobic/whatever speech as a person who is the target of such rhetoric is immediately harmful and othering, especially when these views aren't active…

> First of all, we know that deplatforming racists/fascists does actually help to stop the spread of racist/fascist ideas. People often claim this but there doesn't seem to be any real evidence of it. You get a short-term effect because the target has to regroup, but then they move to a platform with no moderating influences and become even more radicalized. See Voat. > Secondly, and I think this is the more salient…

> Your theory is directly contrary to various clinical treatments for anxiety (e.g. exposure therapy) which are altogether more healthy and sustainable

Reading slurs online isn't exposure therapy. Exposure therapy consists of controlled situations and counseling led by licensed therapists. No therapist would suggest that their clients should expose themselves to abusive and toxic environments as "exposure therapy".

Please don't cherry pick techniques you don't understand from fields you aren't familiar with to support your opinions.

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People seem to forget (for some strange reason) that there are actually laws against things that you can say. For example, defamation laws are in place to punish the distribution of much of what is today qualified as "fake news". If you spread false news on purpose, or if you threat someone of violence, if you make racist comments (in countries like Brazil), these are situations where you can suffer consequences for…

One complicating factor is that the United States guarantees rights that many countries do not, which can cause confusion. And another that often gets thrown is the "is social media a public square or private property" question. FWIW, simply enabling a crime to occur is not necessarily illegal.

> One complicating factor is that the United States guarantees rights that many countries do not

And further it fills a large part of American identity and backstory, to the degree that they don’t seem to realise most rich countries with free citizens get on just fine without it

Re: Brazil Bolsonaro: Facebook told to block accounts of president’s supporters

#90
I am glad that Brazil's court still remains independent.

Looks like Bolsonaro, should borrow couple of tips from his friend Narendra Modi. Modi, dismantled the institutions in India systematically to guarantee his long lasting power.

e.g.

The only official from the election commission who didn't give a clean-chit to Modi for his election campaign violations during last election was greeted with Income Tax raids on his family members after the election, now he has been transferred to Asian Bank(He was next in line to become Chief Election Commissioner).

Look at the current Chief Justice of India, posing with limited edition Harley Davidson[0], which apparently was brought to him 'just for a demo by a local dealer and definitely does not belong to the son of a ruling party member'!

Former Chief Justice of India, has been given membership in parliament!

[0]https://theprint.in/india/photos-of-justice-bobde-astride-a-...

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