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Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

cnbc.com

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Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#441

Post by Slartie »

ethanbond wrote: post #438
Slartie wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be relevant for the discussion if the stated reason for banning TikTok were specific, concrete and actually happening actions of politically-motivated censorship. However, the stated reason is "national security" due to potential access to data of American people. Which - surprise! - is exactly what the CLOUD Act provides the US government with regard to ANY app with server-side data storage operated by AN…

“[CLOUD Act allows] federal law enforcement to compel U.S.-based technology companies via warrant or subpoena to provide requested data stored on servers regardless of whether the data are stored in the U.S. or on foreign soil.” In case you missed it, I’ll emphasize the relevant point: “ via warrant or subpoena ” This is not “exactly,” as you say, the same provision.

And what exactly prevents the US government from creating any kind of subpoena they'd like? They don't even have to defend it anywhere, because "national security" trumps the normal judicative process. The targets of the subpoena aren't allowed to talk about, and the original owners of the data sought by the government will never even see the subpoena.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#442

Post by yorwba »

llamaimperative wrote: post #406
Barrin92 wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evidence at all that China puts the thumbs on the scale when it comes to content being served in the US, TikTok has kept US data out of China, and now is actually willing to open source key parts of its code base to auditors, which is a ridiculous double standard anyway given the disinformation campaigns on domestic platforms who are under no such obligations. That aside, the US is a free country. Everyon…

I would suggest that “media company” is a westernized, capitalist, and therefore inaccurate description of what Bytedance is. It, like all other media in China, is an extension of the state. I am not arguing whether or not the US government has the right to ban TikTok, I am explaining what the threats are. Do not conflate the two and confuse the conversation. It is absolutely possible that this is a threat and we can…

> Bytedance was ordered to suspend its most popular product, a news-aggregator app called Jinri Toutiao (Today’s Headlines). The next day, regulators yanked Neihan Duanzi, the company’s social-media platform, where users share jokes and videos.

If ByteDance really was an extension of the state, surely they wouldn't even have launched a product that violates the regulations of the state they're supposedly an extension of.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#443

Post by CapitalistCartr »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #347
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #106

Not even getting into the CCP ties, it's always struck me as unfair that Western social media companies are banned in China, while Chinese ones have been able to compete Worldwide. In a way this gives Chinese apps an immediate advantage (as some are indirectly calling out in this comment section). If you want to reach out to someone in China, you have to use a Chinese company's app. Since social media is mostly a win…

I agree it's unfair, but when you defend something for moral reasons or claim to have a moral high ground, you should stick with it even if it's unfair, right? The West has always said that the Chinese bans to Western social media and tech companies were authoritarian and antidemocratic. How is this less so?

An effective method of dealing with strangers/new people is mirroring. You give a smiley face on first meeting, then mirror their response: smiley or frowny face.

Also, countries aren't people and can't have friends. Countries have allies and opponents. This colors every interaction.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#444

Post by patmorgan23 »

saimiam wrote: post #391
skissane wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The West has always said that the Chinese bans to Western social media and tech companies were authoritarian and antidemocratic. How is this less so? Policy A: "Any social media platform that refuses to censor opinions the government doesn't like is banned" Policy B: "Foreign social media platforms are only allowed to operate in our country if our own social media platforms are allowed to operate on the same terms…

I won't torture your POWs if you don't torture ours. I won't nationalize your assets in my country if you don't nationalize my assets in your country. I will ban your books if you ban mine. "I will x if you will also x" makes you reactionary and gives agency to someone else to act on your behalf.

Just because it's reactionary doesn't mean its not effective.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#445

Post by dannyw »

xvector wrote: post #355
grazhero99 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is about competition. It's about a belligerent foreign government posing a threat to national security. Now you could argue that's a classic Dubya style ad hoc excuse designed to mask the government's true intentions with this, but I really don't think so. China's behavior is a legitimate threat for which shrugging and saying "let the free market handle it" seems an incredibly dangerous stance to t…

China can harm the US with trade regulations much, much more than the US can harm China. Trump is playing with fire here and it’s honestly not very smart. Not when the US has outsourced its industry to China.

The US also has guns.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#446

Post by tantalor »

supergirl wrote: post #414
Kuinox wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this will be a "Great Firewall". The app will be banned from the stores, advanced users could still install the app by getting the APK.

not on ios. also, i'm afraid banning in the US here means actually banning it worldwide. or that will be the next step. it would be easy to force apple to just pull it from the app store. and no, people won't just install it from the apk. maybe 1% know how to do that, so it'll be a ghost town anyway

That is a risk of a walled garden like iOS.

There's always the web. Good luck banning a website.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#447

Post by glenstein »

xvector wrote: post #354
glenstein wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the other commenter I'm not so sure it's obvious that domestic data collection is 'so much more powerful' - presumably you can learn remarkably specific things about people via tiktok. And GoogleBook aren't using data collection in service of major world power that is, in many senses, an antagonist to the western world, and we have avenues for oversight/reform available to us that we don't necessarily have with…

> and we have avenues for oversight/reform available to us that we don't necessarily have with tiktok Avenues that seem to be working oh-so-well, with the NSA continuing to operate PRISM and hand out NSLs and gag orders?

Yup. Low-effort expressions of incredulity such as this one are a dime a dozen on the internet, and barely worth their weight in bits. We really do have the ability to haul them before congress, impose fines, bring forward anti-trust cases.

It surely is imperfect, but as I said we have tools we can bring to bear, and it's in a context of a working relationship with the US rather than foreign adversaries which is what distinguish those cases from TikTok. If you read that and all you heard was 'Big Tech is Perfect' then I'm just wasting my time here.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#448

Post by wslh »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #106

Not even getting into the CCP ties, it's always struck me as unfair that Western social media companies are banned in China, while Chinese ones have been able to compete Worldwide. In a way this gives Chinese apps an immediate advantage (as some are indirectly calling out in this comment section). If you want to reach out to someone in China, you have to use a Chinese company's app. Since social media is mostly a win…

> it's always struck me as unfair that Western social media companies are banned in China.

It is not about fairness it is just about power.

It always struck me how people in one nation can apply a single issue to defend his nation when there are many other issues that invalidate the argument about the fairness of his own nation actions.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#449

Post by read_if_gay_ »

IgorPartola wrote: post #393
euix wrote: post #48

Shows how far the balance of power has shifted in the last 20 years back when the Chinese government was banning western products to prevent "spiritual pollution" and "western influence". Now we got the reverse and it's also for ideological reasons (at least at face value). Wonder if WeChat is next. That would be fairly effective in prevent overseas Chinese from communicating with the mainland and a lot of mom and po…

Look, this isn’t ideological. This is about Trump being butt hurt. I wish I could put a more nuanced spin on it, but that’s all to this story. TikTok has been a big platform for his critics and he is in a perpetual fight with China. That’s how we ended up here. WeChat is not on his radar and makes no difference to him. It won’t get banned. To be fair, I have a feeling TikTok will simply sue and win since this is blat…

What do you base your reasoning that this is just Trump being butthurt on? Because I have a strong suspicion that even though you don’t think the TikTok ban is ideological, your reasoning for that on the other hand is ideological.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#450

Post by ethanbond »

Slartie wrote: post #441
ethanbond wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“[CLOUD Act allows] federal law enforcement to compel U.S.-based technology companies via warrant or subpoena to provide requested data stored on servers regardless of whether the data are stored in the U.S. or on foreign soil.” In case you missed it, I’ll emphasize the relevant point: “ via warrant or subpoena ” This is not “exactly,” as you say, the same provision.

And what exactly prevents the US government from creating any kind of subpoena they'd like? They don't even have to defend it anywhere, because "national security" trumps the normal judicative process. The targets of the subpoena aren't allowed to talk about, and the original owners of the data sought by the government will never even see the subpoena.

Look, if you don’t believe in the western systems of checks and balances despite the long, long track record of it performing with greater regard for human dignity than any regime without checks and balances, we’re just not going to be able to have a conversation here.

No sensible person would suggest the American system is perfect. But to suggest that an imperfect system of checks and balances is tantamount to an actual unashamed dictatorship is equally divorced from reality.

There’s nowhere for this conversation to go, so have a good weekend!

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