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Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

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Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#401

Post by dmch-1 »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #347
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #106

Not even getting into the CCP ties, it's always struck me as unfair that Western social media companies are banned in China, while Chinese ones have been able to compete Worldwide. In a way this gives Chinese apps an immediate advantage (as some are indirectly calling out in this comment section). If you want to reach out to someone in China, you have to use a Chinese company's app. Since social media is mostly a win…

I agree it's unfair, but when you defend something for moral reasons or claim to have a moral high ground, you should stick with it even if it's unfair, right? The West has always said that the Chinese bans to Western social media and tech companies were authoritarian and antidemocratic. How is this less so?

I defend free trade/market not for moral reasons but for efficiency reasons. But when something as big as China violates it, the efficiency breaks, and there is no point in sticking to it for moral reasons.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#402

Post by cma »

billfruit wrote: post #141
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #106

Not even getting into the CCP ties, it's always struck me as unfair that Western social media companies are banned in China, while Chinese ones have been able to compete Worldwide. In a way this gives Chinese apps an immediate advantage (as some are indirectly calling out in this comment section). If you want to reach out to someone in China, you have to use a Chinese company's app. Since social media is mostly a win…

But this measure isn't bring contemplated from that motive, it appears, the whole narrative is about some perceived threats to national security, which most analysts think is over hyped and only 'theoritical'.

The motive is teens pranked Trump's Tulsa rally, using TikTok.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#403

Post by schrodinger »

skissane wrote: post #394
saimiam wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't torture your POWs if you don't torture ours. I won't nationalize your assets in my country if you don't nationalize my assets in your country. I will ban your books if you ban mine. "I will x if you will also x" makes you reactionary and gives agency to someone else to act on your behalf.

It is standard behaviour in international trade though. “If you ban our products from your country, we’ll ban your products from ours”. Suppose hypothetically, that the EU banned imports of Australian wine, why would it be “reactionary” for Australia to respond in kind by banning imports of EU wine?

It would definitely be reactionary, I think the real question is why would that be a bad thing?

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#404

Post by Kuinox »

envy2 wrote: post #271

This is a terrible development and precedent. Whatever you think of the CCP and the Chinese approach to censorship and tech, building our own 'Great Firewall' and banning foreign apps/services we don't like is not the answer. It just legitimises the Chinese approach and sends us further down the road to a fragmented rather than open internet.

I don't think this will be a "Great Firewall".

The app will be banned from the stores, advanced users could still install the app by getting the APK.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#405

Post by hrktb »

skissane wrote: post #394
saimiam wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't torture your POWs if you don't torture ours. I won't nationalize your assets in my country if you don't nationalize my assets in your country. I will ban your books if you ban mine. "I will x if you will also x" makes you reactionary and gives agency to someone else to act on your behalf.

It is standard behaviour in international trade though. “If you ban our products from your country, we’ll ban your products from ours”. Suppose hypothetically, that the EU banned imports of Australian wine, why would it be “reactionary” for Australia to respond in kind by banning imports of EU wine?

There is nothing positive coming from an aggressive situation anyway, but I’d wager the main issue is the reacting party is always getting hurt more than the other one.

EU would ban Aussie wine only if the benefits overweights straight reciprocation.

So Australia stating it will ban EU wines as a reaction just let’s the EU validate it’s worth it. If it’s not, no ban is set and nobody gets hurt. If it is, both bans are set but the EU comes out better if their calculations are right.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#406

Post by llamaimperative »

Barrin92 wrote: post #387
llamaimperative wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they’re threatened by two things: 1. Equipping the CCP with a sensor placed in the pockets of millions of American citizens. This is already a problem when American companies are doing it for ad targeting purposes. But to do the same and funnel the data to an increasingly militaristic near-peer adversary? It in fact makes it qualitatively, not just quantitatively, different. 2. Tiktok opaquely selects which conte…

There is no evidence at all that China puts the thumbs on the scale when it comes to content being served in the US, TikTok has kept US data out of China, and now is actually willing to open source key parts of its code base to auditors, which is a ridiculous double standard anyway given the disinformation campaigns on domestic platforms who are under no such obligations. That aside, the US is a free country. Everyon…

I would suggest that “media company” is a westernized, capitalist, and therefore inaccurate description of what Bytedance is. It, like all other media in China, is an extension of the state.

I am not arguing whether or not the US government has the right to ban TikTok, I am explaining what the threats are. Do not conflate the two and confuse the conversation. It is absolutely possible that this is a threat and we can legally (or in compliance with our values) not do anything about it.

“All news media run by the party must work to speak for the party’s will and its propositions, and protect the party’s authority and unity,” - Xi Jinping

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/world/asia/china-media-po...

“ On April 9th, the day before Zuckerberg’s testimony began, Bytedance was ordered to suspend its most popular product, a news-aggregator app called Jinri Toutiao (Today’s Headlines). The next day, regulators yanked Neihan Duanzi, the company’s social-media platform, where users share jokes and videos. Last Wednesday, Zhang’s official apology appeared on Weibo, China’s equivalent of Twitter. His company had taken “the wrong path,” he wrote, and, along the way, he had “failed his users.” Perhaps it was not entirely coincidental that his words echoed a notice posted by the State Administration of Press, Publication, Radio, Film and Television, the country’s media regulator”

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/why-china-crack...

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#407

Post by roenxi »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #347
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #106

Not even getting into the CCP ties, it's always struck me as unfair that Western social media companies are banned in China, while Chinese ones have been able to compete Worldwide. In a way this gives Chinese apps an immediate advantage (as some are indirectly calling out in this comment section). If you want to reach out to someone in China, you have to use a Chinese company's app. Since social media is mostly a win…

I agree it's unfair, but when you defend something for moral reasons or claim to have a moral high ground, you should stick with it even if it's unfair, right? The West has always said that the Chinese bans to Western social media and tech companies were authoritarian and antidemocratic. How is this less so?

We're allowed to take a little more of the broader context into account - China is banning things because ideas might be spread that they don't like. People might spread fake news stories, like a genocide in Xianjiang.

The US will read all your messages; but you can say what you like in them. The ban isn't for authoritarian reasons; it is a fairly pure economic/geopolitical play. You can say whatever crazy stuff you like as far as the government is concerned.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#408

Post by geogra4 »

nmfisher wrote: post #334
hourislate wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered a Chinese App on 10's of millions of phones across the US and the security implications? I would think an adversary like China could very well take advantage of that.

I see this line of reasoning often, and frankly, I don’t understand it at all. TikTok poses exactly the same risk as any other app on the App/Play stores. They go through exactly the same static code review and signing process - conducted by two American companies. Any security risk can be addressed at that point in the pipeline. Assuming the concern is about “data security” (vs OS level security), I see literally ze…

Right? That's what so unbelievable about this whole argument! Conceivably this is a tech forum where everyone posting should at least be familiar with that. Tiktok doesn't have any secret hacking rights to your system!

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#409

Post by mam2 »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #347
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #106

Not even getting into the CCP ties, it's always struck me as unfair that Western social media companies are banned in China, while Chinese ones have been able to compete Worldwide. In a way this gives Chinese apps an immediate advantage (as some are indirectly calling out in this comment section). If you want to reach out to someone in China, you have to use a Chinese company's app. Since social media is mostly a win…

I agree it's unfair, but when you defend something for moral reasons or claim to have a moral high ground, you should stick with it even if it's unfair, right? The West has always said that the Chinese bans to Western social media and tech companies were authoritarian and antidemocratic. How is this less so?

> when you defend something for moral reasons or claim to have a moral high ground

It was never a reason of moral. There are all sorts of gates like that in many us industries which favor us compagnies

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#410

Post by dannyw »

dmix wrote: post #350
JanSt wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It‘s a question of distribution power. If the power is granted to the executive branch, they can do it. It‘s part of decisions on their own country. I consider it much more questionable to exert power over allied countries to stop extraterritorial infrastructure projects (i.e. Nordstream 2), because the US wants to sell fracking gas to europe. I‘m sure that using such power will lead to losing it long-term and former…

> It‘s a question of distribution power. If the power is granted to the executive branch, they can do it. Any notably the power the executive branch holds, which the US classically prided themselves on being strictly limited in scope - as directly opposed to the monarchies the founding fathers resent, has exploded in power since 9/11 under Bush, then later even more so under Obama. People had been critiquing the powe…

“National security” itself is literally removing checks and balances in our democracy in order to be more dictatorship like. That’s it.

Think about the Hong Kong national security act. Think about the patriot act and all it’s powers.

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