Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO' • Hacker News Board

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#191

Post by runarberg » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 1:02 AM UTC

rumanator wrote: post #184

runarberg wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep missing my point. It doesn’t matter if they are good or noble or anything (also ISIS is not a civilian group). It matters that there exist civilian groups that are a) capable, b) willing, and c) have reasons to do something like this. Civilian anti-military activists are such a group, regardless of how correct, or noble the cause is. Just to prevent misunderstanding: I am not accusing peace activists of thes…

We can either spend all week coming up with fake suspects, or we could call a spade a spade based on all the piling evidence. https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2019/04/26/russian...

> based on all the piling evidence

As you link to an article written by a partial actor over a year before the crime.

Just because an actor is guilty of several crimes, it won’t mean that all similar crimes conducted afterwards are conducted by that same actor.

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#192

Post by vbsd » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 1:12 AM UTC

runarberg wrote: post #190

rumanator wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Are you serious? Do you also believe everyone should just disband their local police force because a neighbouring town experienced a crime? I would understand using Ukraine's example to argue the exact opposite, but for some reason you believe that a first sign of aggression justifies dismantling all defenses.

Yes I am... What is the point of having a military alliance to protect against foreign invasions if that military alliance won’t protect you from invasion?

This line of thinking would be very relevant if Ukraine was a member of NATO. But since it’s not, could you elaborate? Which alliance do you mean?

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#193

Post by runarberg » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 2:16 AM UTC

vbsd wrote: post #192

runarberg wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I am... What is the point of having a military alliance to protect against foreign invasions if that military alliance won’t protect you from invasion?

This line of thinking would be very relevant if Ukraine was a member of NATO. But since it’s not, could you elaborate? Which alliance do you mean?

You are moving the goal post a little bit. Ukraine is bordered to the west with all NATO members. They have been aspiring NATO members since the end of the cold war, currently hold the status of “intensified dialogue”. European nations have expressed interests in protecting the Ukrainian borders. It was in the direct interest of NATO to uphold that, and Ukraine is willing to receive that help.

There is precedent of NATO interfering in armed conflicts outside of the borders of their member states. They did so in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kosovo during the Yugoslav wars. They also did so in Afghanistan and Libya (come to think of it; NATO has demonstrated it self to be more like an invasion pact then a defensive one). Why didn’t they act in Ukraine? You tell me.

Now again, there are non-intervention ways of punishing Russia for this blatant violation of international treaties, such as boycotts or sanctions. However all of the 10 NATO members that qualified opted to participate in the 2018 FIFA world cup hosted by hostile Russia. How is that for solidarity?

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#194

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 10:15 AM UTC

runarberg wrote: post #193

vbsd wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This line of thinking would be very relevant if Ukraine was a member of NATO. But since it’s not, could you elaborate? Which alliance do you mean?

You are moving the goal post a little bit. Ukraine is bordered to the west with all NATO members. They have been aspiring NATO members since the end of the cold war, currently hold the status of “intensified dialogue”. European nations have expressed interests in protecting the Ukrainian borders. It was in the direct interest of NATO to uphold that, and Ukraine is willing to receive that help. There is precedent of N…

[deleted]

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#195

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 11:51 AM UTC

DenisM wrote: post #179

adventured wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm an advocate of the US entirely removing itself militarily from the Middle East, none of those properly qualify against the parent's point. The parent referred to starting wars. The first one doesn't qualify at all. The US and NATO have intervened in the two civil wars (along with numerous other countries; with France recently pleading with the US to remain in Syria). It's an overreach to claim the US starte…

> The US and NATO have intervened in the two civil wars It might have been a civil war at the start, but after that it was a war of the US against two sovereign states. Nothing civil about that.

[deleted]

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#196

Post by lioeters » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 1:05 PM UTC

Zenst wrote: post #141

toohotatopic wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The meaning of all words changes. It would be ironic if the meaning of the word hacker would be unchangeable, impenetrable.

> The meaning of all words changes. It would be ironic if the meaning of the word hacker would be unchangeable, impenetrable. Hats off, brilliantly put and the whole aspect that the word hackers got hacked is one that I'll remember with a smile upon this subject. Thank you for that perspective - I'll think better for it.

Indeed, that was insightful - the word "hacker" has been hacked by mass media to re/present a politicized and criminalized interpretation.

The predicament itself feels ironic, in that "hacker" culture reveled in the amoral, going beyond conventional behavior, thinking outside the box, getting around rules and systems, manipulating technology for fun and profit.

In a way, that dark side of the hacker attitude now pervades politics, business, and the media. Public institutions and private organizations are surveilling, cataloguing, identifying trends, and maniputing public opinion and social behavior.

I suppose it was inevitable that "hacker culture" itself was infiltrated and hacked, to serve an ulterior purpose.

A healthy reaction has been the rise of "maker culture". What is old is new again!

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#197

Post by lioeters » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 1:11 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #129

hnarn wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately for you and the rest of Americans that feel this isolationist tendency, your country will be a part of the world whether you like it or not. A modern conflict that does not involve the US is not the same thing as a modern conflict that does not affect the US. Also, your opinion of Europe doesn’t seem founded in reality. Since when does European nations not have their own standing armies, and since when…

Well, I'm sick and tired of being lambasted by the rest of the world 24/7 and would like to go back to pre-WW2 isolationism. EU can fend for itself. It doesn't need the US military. And the USA doesn't need NATO. Our military is bigger than the rest of NATO combined. > Since when does European nations not have their own standing armies Europe spends very little on their military compared to USA, China, Russia, etc. >…

> would like to go back to pre-WW2 isolationism

And we all know how that turned out..

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#198

Post by perl4ever » Sun, Aug 02, 2020, 1:10 AM UTC

winter_blue wrote: post #72

If the recent HN story of Apple taking 30% of refunded purchases is any indication, fabricated stories have a frighteningly strong staying power. What was especially sad was that a highly knowledgeable group of people (HN) were misled and deceived by the Apple story (which could have been easy verified). If HN is so easily misled, how much more likely is the general population vulnerable to these foreign-government-o…

>a highly knowledgeable group of people (HN)

Threads don't attract the same people. It's reasonable to suppose that the vast majority of people that didn't believe the story didn't participate at all - they said to themselves "this looks dumb/boring/improbable" and clicked on something else.

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#199

Post by jessaustin » Sun, Aug 02, 2020, 1:51 PM UTC

auganov wrote: post #187

vkou wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm just telling you I find the question irrelevant. If you're threatened with total destruction and think you can win of course you should attack. Great. Now, put yourself in Ivan's shoes. NATO has encircled you, militarily and economically. Your military is second-rate, at best. But you do have six thousand nuclear weapons, which mean that nobody is stupid enough to mess with you. ... And then Uncle Sam starts bu…

Again, as I said, I don't believe Russia has a reason to believe they'd win hence further advances in anti-nuclear defense only lessen the chance of them attacking not increase it. If one side ends up controlling the other or there's a favorable truce to one side that side wins. All war is nasty and results in terrible destruction. Doesn't mean there's no winner at the end of it. I can throw random percentages around…

You seem unable to imagine yourself in anyone else's position. You hypothesize that Russia will always meekly back down, yet you can't envision a situation in which USA would even compromise. Even worse, your repeated insistence on USA being militarily "vastly superior" shows that you're completely trapped in the mythology and unable to imagine yourself in the your own actual position. USA doesn't win wars. We haven't won a war in my parents' lifetimes. What our military exists to do is spend money. That's why it always "wins" the yearly how-much-money-did-you-waste-on-weaponry competition: no one else is competing! In Afghanistan, in Iraq, in Libya, in Syria, we have seen that regardless of the marketing, when USA attacks it does so without hope of obtaining any of its stated or unstated objectives. It's always just a bonfire of money and human lives.

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#200

Post by qserasera » Sun, Aug 02, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

HenryKissinger wrote: post #31

_jal wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are serious constraints on what can be done. Among others, why would any other country make an agreement with the US where the payoff is more than 4 years out? It has repeatedly demonstrated an inability to keep promises.

I think this concern is overblown. It certainly hasn't stopped Canada and Mexico from negotiating the USMCA trade agreement, for example. The JCPOA (more commonly known as the Iran deal) constrained Iran's nuclear program, and it was with great disappointment that I watched the administration withdraw. But there were anecdotal reports of transgressions on Iran's part, and the JCPOA was never submitted to the US Senat…

Just as a reminder for everyone reading this the JCPOA has been violated for almost a year by Iran and they seem to be much closer at maintaining weapons grade enrichment and warheads.