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Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

bowero.nl

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Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#61

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

LeftHandPath wrote: post #48
ummonk wrote: post #32

The referenced AppSignal post about 13,000 dependencies for a todo list is conflating dependencies required for the build tooling with dependencies that are actually bundled in to the web app. It's also hilarious that right after referencing the dependency problem in the JS ecosystem the OP then goes and advocates splitting up your library into a bunch of mini libraries. That's exactly how we got into this mess in th…

I agree with the core point of the article, but I agree with your points as well. The conclusion of the article is definitely wrong. I recently buddied up with someone who has a CS degree to try and make a desktop app, as a side project. I asked if he is familiar with MariaDB and whether or not he's used C++ ODBC. Our discussion quickly turned into choosing libraries / existing code. He uses Spring and Hibernate and…

> "It seems there are two distinct branches of computing emerging - one where performance matters, and one where it doesn't."

The unfortunate corollary being that the prevalence of developers who treat it as if it doesn't makes it darned hard to find one who treats as if it does when you need one.

> "Applications made for "consumers" tend to be made like a cheap car"

Not really a great analogy. The Prius has a reputation for quality and reliability; it's often seen used in taxi fleets, where those qualities are a must. Luxury cars often have high maintenance requirements and poor reliability since cost is not a concern to their owners.

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#62

Post by akkartik »

tedunangst wrote: post #37
horsawlarway wrote: post #23

This article is the problem. It's the same freaking fallacy I see again and again on here - It's simple, easy to understand, and dead fucking wrong. The vast majority of the complexity you're dealing with in modern computing comes from three sources. In the order of impact 1. Networking. It turns out there are real and hard limits on how fast we can pass data around over copper wires. Fiber is better, but you just li…

Not sure how any of this explains why a text editor can't fit in some countably finite number of kilobytes.

Compatibility might contribute?

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#63

Post by pacaro »

What gets me is part of the '95 quote about computing in the 70s

"About 25 years ago, an interactive text editor could be designed with as little as 8,000 bytes of storage"

Such a text editor likely couldn't handle lowercase in English, let alone any other Latin script language, let alone cjkv or bi-di. The bloat in software of 95 and the present day is real, but there is no real effort to make an apples to apples comparison in what our expectations of software are, and it massively weakens the argument

Parallel arguments can clearly be made for compilers etc.

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#64

Post by heavenlyblue »

viraptor wrote: post #51
LeftHandPath wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the core point of the article, but I agree with your points as well. The conclusion of the article is definitely wrong. I recently buddied up with someone who has a CS degree to try and make a desktop app, as a side project. I asked if he is familiar with MariaDB and whether or not he's used C++ ODBC. Our discussion quickly turned into choosing libraries / existing code. He uses Spring and Hibernate and…

> but most people won't care. Charity Majors said about reliability: "Nines don’t matter if users aren’t happy." I'd propose an alternative view here: "Bloat doesn't matter if users are happy."

Users are happy until they saw better :)

Today bloat doesn’t matter, tomorrow you’re are a fat dinosaur

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#65

Post by dfox »

sheepz wrote: post #41
baryphonic wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see how having IDEs implemented in browsers has anything to do with security, the speed of light or compatibility. It's just the lack of constraints allowed by advances in computer hardware. This isn't a compatibility issue? We've seen about 8-16 branches of the write-once, run-everywhere tree over the past 25 years, I'm not sure how that isn't seen as a constraint on programmers. JWT, Swing, Web, Cordova,…

While there is certainly more complexity in modern software, it does not necessarily need to translate to increased memory, CPU usage and increased latency for the user. Are you saying that this increase in software complexity definitely increases these requirements? Java is definitely not a good example of a memory-efficient language when compared to its non-GC alternatives. It all comes down to economics, software…

The “Java bloat” mostly has nothing to do with the language itself, but is caused by the ecosystem around it. On one hand you have overly abstract frameworks and on the other you have inexperienced programmers who don't understand how such frameworks are supposed to be used and write code that actively fights against the framework...

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#66

Post by bbreier »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #61
LeftHandPath wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the core point of the article, but I agree with your points as well. The conclusion of the article is definitely wrong. I recently buddied up with someone who has a CS degree to try and make a desktop app, as a side project. I asked if he is familiar with MariaDB and whether or not he's used C++ ODBC. Our discussion quickly turned into choosing libraries / existing code. He uses Spring and Hibernate and…

> " It seems there are two distinct branches of computing emerging - one where performance matters, and one where it doesn't. " The unfortunate corollary being that the prevalence of developers who treat it as if it doesn't makes it darned hard to find one who treats as if it does when you need one. > " Applications made for "consumers" tend to be made like a cheap car " Not really a great analogy. The Prius has a re…

> Luxury cars often have high maintenance requirements and poor reliability since cost is not a concern to their owners.

This is absolutely a nit and does not disqualify your overarching statement at all, but generally these attributes are due to the constraints of technology-- for example, fitting large, high performance engines necessarily increases the frequency of maintenance intervals as well as the difficulty (and therefore, cost) of maintenance. If luxury car manufacturers could make cars with the handling and performance characteristics of their flagship models but with the maintenance costs and intervals of a Toyota Corolla, they absolutely would.

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#67

Post by viraptor »

heavenlyblue wrote: post #64
viraptor wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but most people won't care. Charity Majors said about reliability: "Nines don’t matter if users aren’t happy." I'd propose an alternative view here: "Bloat doesn't matter if users are happy."

Users are happy until they saw better :) Today bloat doesn’t matter, tomorrow you’re are a fat dinosaur

Sure, but... that confirms this view.

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#69

Post by k__ »

sheepz wrote: post #28
horsawlarway wrote: post #23

This article is the problem. It's the same freaking fallacy I see again and again on here - It's simple, easy to understand, and dead fucking wrong. The vast majority of the complexity you're dealing with in modern computing comes from three sources. In the order of impact 1. Networking. It turns out there are real and hard limits on how fast we can pass data around over copper wires. Fiber is better, but you just li…

No, it's the other way around. Advances in computer hardware have allowed the use more inefficient programming languages allowing more inexperienced and unskilled programmers to create programs leading to more resource hungry programs. When there are little resource constraints the only real constraint becomes developer time. I don't see how having IDEs implemented in browsers has anything to do with security, the sp…

"allowing more inexperienced and unskilled programmers to create programs"

You realize that this is a good thing, right?

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#70

Post by shoozza »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #18

There are many complaints but there doesn't seem to be a real movement to make/use/cultivate small and fast software for all purposes. I'd join. Fragmented parts could be suckless.org, old cheap thinkpads from ebay, fast Linux distros, unix command line tools, retrocomputing, raspberry pi; all things with communities and fans who like a certain quality, simplicity and the good old days.

There is also handemade.network. Maybe that's something for you.

https://handmade.network/manifesto

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