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Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

bowero.nl

11–20 of 198 posts

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#11
post #6

The argument got rather confused at the end. The todo list has 13,000 dependencies precisely because the NPM community follows the advice here to create many small libraries. So is that supposed to be a good or bad thing?

That depends on who is doing the supposing.

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#12
And the trend is not slowing. That said some people like low fat computing.

Another thing.. computing is over. At least in the previous era form. It's not bringing dreams anymore, will probably turn into an ubiquitous invisible form where intrinsic details such as resource usage won't matter.

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#13
I think a lot of this is governed by Conway's Adage: the software reflects the social systems that built it. If you look at the larger software ecosystem, it reflects the larger society that built it. The priorities and social customs of communities are leading to the "bloat." It's hard to say whether that is a growth on society's part or that software is simply still catching up with society.

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#14
post #4

I was expecting Moore's Law to give us a renaissance in algorithmic thinking, but The Cloud has shown me I was wrong. First, we're going to have to fully explore Amdahl's law. Eventually every problem goes to logn time, best case. The logn factor shows up over and over, from constraints on on-chip cache to communication delays to adding numbers of arbitrary size. We make a lot of problems look like they are O(1) unti…

Herb Sutter had a wonderful talk on constant factor plague. As much as I like clojure and similar convenience and algorithmic beauty.. I can appreciate the devil-is-in-the-details much more since this video (forgot the title sorry)

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#15
post #4

I was expecting Moore's Law to give us a renaissance in algorithmic thinking, but The Cloud has shown me I was wrong. First, we're going to have to fully explore Amdahl's law. Eventually every problem goes to logn time, best case. The logn factor shows up over and over, from constraints on on-chip cache to communication delays to adding numbers of arbitrary size. We make a lot of problems look like they are O(1) unti…

> First, we're going to have to fully explore Amdahl's law.

Funny! Depressing :(

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#16
post #13

I think a lot of this is governed by Conway's Adage: the software reflects the social systems that built it. If you look at the larger software ecosystem, it reflects the larger society that built it. The priorities and social customs of communities are leading to the "bloat." It's hard to say whether that is a growth on society's part or that software is simply still catching up with society.

Back when a ton of software was written by graduate students... it was small (because no time), fast-ish (because small), and buggy as all heck (because no time).

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#17
There’s a few issues with this post. It starts off great but falls down hard.

For one, PHP did not start out object oriented. Nor did it come with an IDE. Sure, it was dynamically typed (unlike Java). If I recall, it was 1994 too but I can’t be sure.

It was only PHP4 that added an abomination of a class system that motivated the current object system in PHP5. In fact, the problems with PHP have more to do with that pattern: creating abominations that motivate the development of something that isn’t a total abomination (often whilst retaining said abomination for a while).

And, as others have said, small “libraries” is exactly why the todo app needs 13k NPM packages.

I say “libraries” but you can’t call them that. I mean where’s the analogy? A library of one function? Behave

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#18
There are many complaints but there doesn't seem to be a real movement to make/use/cultivate small and fast software for all purposes.

I'd join.

Fragmented parts could be suckless.org, old cheap thinkpads from ebay, fast Linux distros, unix command line tools, retrocomputing, raspberry pi; all things with communities and fans who like a certain quality, simplicity and the good old days.

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#19

And the trend is not slowing. That said some people like low fat computing. Another thing.. computing is over. At least in the previous era form. It's not bringing dreams anymore, will probably turn into an ubiquitous invisible form where intrinsic details such as resource usage won't matter.

I think you might be a little pessimistic here - IOT has a wealth of fruit to bear, from:

low power always-on devices with long range radio (LoRa), few resources (32k ram), the security constraints of securing every device, dealing with terabytes of log data in the cloud, ML at the edge (Kendryte K210), open-source firmware including radio (DASH7 firmware), open-source hardware (and open-source FPGA tooling) to create custom hardware designs (hardware implementation of algorithms), formal verification of OS and protocols, etc etc.

Even a handful of innovation in any of the above would be groundbreaking.

Re: Niklaus Wirth was right and that is a problem

#20
There is an analogous problem in city design, wherein it was discovered that it was empirically not possible to get the average commute down below a certain time, because as more roads were built people moved further away from town. If you build more lanes to your roads, you don't get a faster commute, you get more sprawl.

People spend time making software less bloated, when it's the number one problem they have. When hardware speed is taking care of making that only the #2 or #3 problem they have, then they will work on whatever the #1 problem is, meanwhile adding more software bloat.

When Moore's Law once and for all stops, due to some law of physics reason, then software bloat will become a priority. Until then, other things are.

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